[Foundation-l] Fwd: Localisation of MediaWiki

Wed Jan 16 08:00:11 UTC 2008

Hoi,
What we have been doing is first getting the easy stuff out of the way. Easy
in this means it is just ticking the requirements for "eligible". For your
information this change of the name for the stage was introduced to give a
better understanding of what this phase means. It is now being considered
and at the end of the week it is likely to be the official label.

More and more what is left are the projects with technical or other issues.
We have issues with Karelian because in the project proposal it says that
you want to combine with other languages. This is currently something we are
not happy with and the only route we see is for something like MultiLingual
MediaWiki to be used. This software is still being developed and it is not
ready for the big time. Berto has recently loaded it on one of his servers
and is looking at it and is in contact with Charles, the developer on this.

Now a project being in discussion is better then us saying no. There are
however a substantial grouping that we will have not said no to. This is
what we are working on.. Please appreciate that we are volunteers. We are
getting better tooling, we are becoming more helpful in pointing out our
requirements but things are getting done slowly. When we say no, we want to
have good arguments and it sometimes takes time to get consensus about this.
NB The language committee is quite an extended group of people in many
timezones.

Thanks,
      GerardM

On Jan 16, 2008 8:49 AM, Yaroslav M. Blanter <putevod at mccme.ru> wrote:

> I think now (for a week or so already) instead of "conditionally approved"
> they use the term "eligible", which in my opinion better states what has
> been done. The procedure of deeming "eligible" takes less than a day at
> this stage. (Though apparently there are some exceptions with discussion
> taken over months, like Karelian Wp).
>
> Cheers,
> Yaroslav
>
> > Hoi,
> > For the record the time from a proposed *final* approval to publishing
> the
> > approval is at least two weeks. The fact that Japanese Wikiveristy
> > show as *conditionally
> > approved* is only demonstrating the fact that there are no obstacles
> from
> > finally approving a project. At this stage we do not look at all at the
> > localisation.
> >
> > A good example is Sranan Tongo. They have been conditionally approved
> and
> > are working hard and doing a great job on their localisation. At the
> time
> > of
> > final approval when we consider eligibility for final approval we look
> at
> > the localisation for real.
> > Thanks,
> >      GerardM
> >
> >
> > On Jan 15, 2008 2:17 PM, Aphaia < aphaia at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Jan 15, 2008 9:09 PM, Jerome Banal < jerome.banal at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > I certainly don't want to sit between you guys but just want to
> >> highlight
> >> > something that I think I understood (but might be wrong) from
> Gerard's
> >> > writings and that you may have missed:
> >> >
> >> > It seems to me that the Greek project has been under examination
> >> before
> >> the
> >> > change in policy that creates this new stronger requirement, whereas
> >> the
> >> > Japanese has been examined after this change.
> >>
> >> [show] Wikiversity Greek        3  Approved     10-Jan-2008
> >> [show] Wikiversity Japanese 2   2  Verified as eligible
> >> 19-Dec-2007
> >>
> >> And it was January 5 that GerardM told Japanese Wikiversity to
> >> localize all files.
> >>
> >>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Requests_for_new_languages%2FWikiversity_Japanese_2&diff=819899&oldid=799361
> >>
> >>
> >> I am afraid your chronology is anachronistic and not based on the fact.
> >>
> >> > It's not that the two projects are considered differently under the
> >> same
> >> > rules, it is that they are considered with different rules because
> the
> >> rules
> >> > have changed (for every project that has not been examined yet,
> >> including
> >> > any additional Greek project that may come after that one) between
> the
> >> two
> >> > requests.
> >>
> >> > Now, I might be wrong; This is not very well mentioned in Gerard's
> >> mails
> >> but
> >> > I think it is hinted.
> >> >
> >> > Not taking any position for or against that change in rule :-)
> >> >
> >> > Kind regards,
> >> > Jerome
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > 2008/1/15, Aphaia < aphaia at gmail.com>:
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > > On Jan 15, 2008 8:25 PM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com
> >
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > > > Hoi,
> >> > > > I tried to point out to you personally how the policy is
> >> consistent
> >> in
> >> > > time.
> >> > > > I also explained why the policy is reasonable. As I have said the
> >> same
> >> > > > things now several times, I do not want to repeat the things
> >> publicly
> >> > > again
> >> > > > unless there is a new point to clarify.
> >> > >
> >> > > It is your wishes not mine. And if you think it is enough to
> >> persuade
> >> > > me to cover your inequity for all Japanese people involved into
> >> > > Wiversity sorry I disagree.
> >> > >
> >> > > There is no reason to hide it in a cupboard. And I esteem
> >> transparency.
> >> > >
> >> > > And if there is any new point - you still haven't provide why
> >> inequity
> >>
> >> > > between Greeks and Japanese justified.
> >> > >
> >> > > > Because of my respect to you I have
> >> > > > endeavoured to word things differently and more personally. I do
> >> not
> >> do
> >> > > that
> >> > > > for many others. :)
> >> > >
> >> > > 1. I don't have an interest to discuss with you as individual. I
> ask
> >> > > Langcom for their opinion as Wikimedia Committee. Not you
> >> individual.
> >> > > Hence your wish for private conversation is irrelevant.
> >> > > 2. As a committee member, I rather wish you esteem the all
> >> Wikiversity
> >> > > people, not your preferring individuals. And as a committee member
> >> you
> >>
> >> > > should do, imo.
> >> > >
> >> > > > PS my name is Gerard not Gerald :)
> >> > >
> >> > > Sorry, it is hard for native Japanese speaker to distinguish  them.
> >> > >
> >> > > > Thanks,
> >> > > >     Gerard
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Jan 15, 2008 11:45 AM, Aphaia <aphaia at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Back to foundation-l.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Gerald, I have no idea why you mailed me privately and in that
> >> mail
> >> > > > > you didn't respond any of my specific questions.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > I think I tried to ask politely LangCom for the inconsistency
> in
> >> > > > > GeraldM's messages and ask GeraldM himself to clarify what is
> >> his
> >> > > > > standpoint?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > In this context what means a privately sent mail?
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > In both points a reasonable public clear response in an
> >> appropriate
> >> > > > > manner will be appreciated.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > On Jan 15, 2008 6:55 PM, Gerard Meijssen
> >> <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com
> >> >
> >> > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > Hoi,
> >> > > > > > The policy was recently changed. All the languages that were
> >> at
> >> that
> >> > > > time
> >> > > > > > approved or were in the process of being approved do not have
> >> to
> >>
> >> > > comply
> >> > > > with
> >> > > > > > the new standard. The process of being approved starts when a
> >> member
> >> > > of
> >> > > > the
> >> > > > > > langcom asks other members of the langcom for approval for a
> >> > > project.
> >> > > > This
> >> > > > > > is often communicated privately with people representing the
> >> new
> >> > > > project.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > We need full localisation for all languages. For Greek, for
> >> Japanese
> >> > > ...
> >> > > > > > without full localisation important messages will not be
> >> available
> >> > > and
> >> > > > > > consequently when new software is introduced there will be a
> >> lot
> >> of
> >> > > > > > uncertainty. The messages for Single User Logon are in an
> >> exension.
> >> > > They
> >> > > > are
> >> > > > > > extremely relevant when SUL goes life. We do not require any
> >> > > extension
> >> > > > > > messages for a first project in a language because we trust
> >> the
> >> > > > community to
> >> > > > > > do well and translate them in BetaWIki. Often these messages
> >> are
> >>
> >> > > > translated
> >> > > > > > in the local project.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > With a second project in a language it becomes even more
> >> important
> >> > > that
> >> > > > the
> >> > > > > > localisation is done centrally and this is the reason for the
> >> new
> >> > > > > > requirement. It is hard work to maintain the localisation.
> >> When
> >> the
> >> > > > > > localisation is only done in the biggest project. The smaller
> >> > > projects
> >> > > > lose
> >> > > > > > out.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > I hope you will appreciate that this policy only aims to
> >> improve
> >> the
> >> > > > > > localisation in all languages for us all. If anything the
> >> policy
> >> and
> >> > > the
> >> > > > > > hard work at BetaWiki have shown to have a good effect.
> Things
> >> have
> >> > > > already
> >> > > > > > improved quite substantially over the last few months.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Thanks,
> >> > > > > >      Gerard
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Thanks,
> >> > > > > >     Gerard
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > On Jan 15, 2008 10:40 AM, Aphaia < aphaia at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > On Jan 15, 2008 4:26 PM, Gerard Meijssen <
> >> > > gerard.meijssen at gmail.com>
> >> > > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > Hoi,
> >> > > > > > > > Several members of the language committee are extremely
> >> unhappy
> >> > > with
> >> > > > > > > > Pathoschild's sorry show of doing this on his own accord.
> >> They
> >> > > have
> >> > > > > > > > indicated that they will block final approval for any
> >> project by
> >> > > > going
> >> > > > > > back
> >> > > > > > > > on this necessary part of the policy.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Unless one other member of Langcom gives their
> >> understanding,
> >> I
> >> > > think
> >> > > > > > > it wise not to comment to this part of your statement.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > And I take it strangely you speak without clarification as
> >> whom
> >> > > you
> >> > > > > > > are talking. I don't want an opinion of certain individual
> >> on
> >> his
> >> > > > > > > individual basis. I asked opinion of Langcom.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Do you speak here on behalf of Langcom based on consensus?
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Again, there are two parts to the policy.
> >> > > > > > > > * When a language is starting it only needs to do the
> most
> >> used
> >> > > > messages
> >> > > > > > of
> >> > > > > > > > MediaWiki. This provides basic support for a language.
> >> > > > > > > > * When a project request is a subsequent project for a
> >> language,
> >> > > all
> >> > > > > > > > MediaWiki messages and the messages of the extension used
> >> by
> >> the
> >> > > WMF
> >> > > > are
> >> > > > > > > > required.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > [snip]
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > It is exactly for languages that use a different script
> >> that
> >> it
> >> > > is
> >> > > > vital
> >> > > > > > > > that the localisation is done completely. For these
> >> languages
> >> > > there
> >> > > > is
> >> > > > > > no
> >> > > > > > > > chance that the English word is the same or similar.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Your argument here again become pointless. "A different
> >> script" is
> >> > > > > > > unclear and a-certain-but-not-clear-language-centric. Even
> >> if
> >> I
> >> > > assume
> >> > > > > > > you wanted to mean "a different language from MediaWiki
> >> default =
> >> > > > > > > latin script", it is still pointless and give no insight of
> >> > > > > > > differences Langcom set between Greek (Greek script, not
> >> latin)
> >> > > and
> >> > > > > > > Japanese (Kana and Kanji). And I would politely add Greek
> is
> >> not
> >> > > > > > > English word.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Shortly your argument doesn't provide any good reason for
> >> your
> >> > > favor
> >> > > > > > > to Greek project.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > MediaWiki is an integral part of how we provide our
> >> information.
> >> > > It
> >> > > > > > needs as
> >> > > > > > > > much tender loving care as we give to our content.
> >> MediaWiki
> >>
> >> > > > receives a
> >> > > > > > lot
> >> > > > > > > > of tender loving care from the developers. We can show
> our
> >> > > > appreciation
> >> > > > > > by
> >> > > > > > > > making sure that their software is properly understood
> and
> >> > > > appreciated
> >> > > > > > by
> >> > > > > > > > all its users not only for the people that know English
> >> and
> >> get
> >> > > > > > everything
> >> > > > > > > > by default.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Again I should ask you: who are we? Specially if
> Pathoschild
> >> > > pointed
> >> > > > > > > out flows in your wording?
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > Thanks,
> >> > > > > > > >     GerardM
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > On Jan 15, 2008 12:08 AM, Jesse Martin (Pathoschild)
> >> > > > > > <pathoschild at gmail.com >
> >> > > > > > > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > Aphaia, I'm sorry; I looked at the localization for
> >> Japanese,
> >> > > and
> >> > > > it
> >> > > > > > > > > seems that this problem is caused by a change that
> >> happened a
> >> > > few
> >> > > > days
> >> > > > > > > > > ago in the requirements. I've reverted them and brought
> >> them
> >> > > up
> >> > > > for
> >> > > > > > > > > subcommittee discussion again (I hadn't commented on
> >> them,
> >> > > because
> >> > > > it
> >> > > > > > > > > didn't seem from the proposal that they'd make much
> >> > > difference).
> >> > > > I'll
> >> > > > > > > > > keep you updated off-list.
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > Yaroslav, as far as I know (I don't participate on that
> >> page)
> >> > > > those
> >> > > > > > > > > numbers are only there to give a general idea of the
> >> > > discussion.
> >> > > > Since
> >> > > > > > > > > they're manually updated, they're probably outdated
> most
> >> of
> >> > > the
> >> > > > time.
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > --
> >> > > > > > > > > Yours cordially,
> >> > > > > > > > > Jesse Martin (Pathoschild)
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > > > > > > > foundation-l mailing list
> >> > > > > > > > > foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> >> > > > > > > > > Unsubscribe:
> >> > > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > > > > > > foundation-l mailing list
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> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > --
> >> > > > > > > KIZU Naoko
> >> > > > > > > http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
> >> > > > > > > Quote of the Day (English):
> >> http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > foundation-l mailing list
> >> > > > > > > foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
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> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > --
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > KIZU Naoko
> >> > > > > http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
> >> > > > > Quote of the Day (English):
> http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > foundation-l mailing list
> >> > > > > foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> >> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> >> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > --
> >> > > KIZU Naoko
> >> > > http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
> >> > > Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD
> >> > >
> >> > > _______________________________________________
> >> > > foundation-l mailing list
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> KIZU Naoko
> >> http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
> >> Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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