[WikiEN-l] FBI vs. Wikipedia

[Carcharoth]

On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 1:36 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8 August 2010 01:29, Carcharoth <carcharothwp at googlemail.com> wrote:
>> I might be reading the wrong thread, but I've read through the "FBI
>> Seal and Wikimedia" thread on foundation-l, starting here:
>>
>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2010-August/060329.html
>>
>> There are some 11 posts to that thread, none of which seem to actually
>> say anything substantive. I would have thought that a serious debate
>> would have been better than having "fun" over this clash with an
>> authority figure organisation. The FBI may have been wrong this time,
>> but that doesn't mean they won't try again with another argument, and
>> it doesn't mean that some of the concerns raised shouldn't be
>> considered in this or other contexts.
>
> You were expecting something substantive from foundation-l?
>
> If the FBI try something else, we'll deal with it then. We can't do
> anything about it without knowing what they'll try, and it doesn't
> seem wise to speculate about what they could try on the public list -
> we might give them ideas! I considered the concerns raised and
> rejected them. If you think there is actually something worth
> discussing, please speak up.

I thought the bit about high-resolution imagery possibly being
problematic was a reasonable point. Most other organisations would
agree to use a low-resolution version, but that can be a difficult or
impossible approach for Commons to take for various reasons.

I also found it interesting that someone made a point that the
Encyclopedia Britannica seemed to remove their image of the seal from
their article on the FBI (though as someone else pointed out, it is
still available from the media section of their article). Someone did
try and raise that point on the foundation-l thread, but nothing much
further was said on that point.

I'm unclear what would happen if the source Commons got the seal from
was taken down, and all the official sources of the seal were all
low-resolution. I get that such logos can be turned into .svg
versions, which makes the question of resolution a bit pointless, but
have a look at the sourcing statement of the image:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US-FBI-Seal.svg

"Extracted from PDF file available on this page (direct PDF URL here),
and colorized according to bitmap version on the FBI home page and
other versions such as Image:FBISeal.png. Most bitmap versions use
gradients, but I'm not experienced enough to add those."

It's more a manipulated copy of the seal, with manipulation including
a file format change, rather than taking and using a pure copy.
Usually, in cases where you don't want the appearance of an official
emblem to drift or change, you have either an original from which all
copies are made, or detailed specifications (like those for the US
flag). Here, you have people piecing together bits and pieces of
information from different online copies to try and come up with a
version to use here. Usually, the approach you would take if you
wanted an accurate version is to go to the organisation and ask for a
file to use, but again, Commons is different from other organisations
in the approach it takes.

If you look at the various forms of the FBI seal on Commons, it
becomes clearer that what Commons has is not an official version of
the seal, but something they claim is official, but may not be.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:FBI_seal.svg

"This vector image was created by converting the Encapsulated
PostScript file available at Brands of the World"

Again, this is a rather strange way to source an image.

Other versions have sourcing statements such as:

"Extracted from PDF version of a DNI 100-day plan followup report"
"Better quality version, from the FBi presentation at to U.S. DOJ"

Also, the gallery here:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US-FBI-Seal.svg

Has the following comments:

1) Bitmap version, with gradients
2) Alternate SVG version, with gradients
3) Alternate SVG version, may not be official

The heraldy is described here:

http://www.fbi.gov/libref/historic/fbiseal/fbiseal.htm

But where the exact dimensions and appearance originated from is not clear.

It would be interesting to compare the modern-day seal's appearance
with that of the seal in 1908.

Carcharoth