[WikiEN-l] No derivatives (was: Would you like one of your videos posted on Wikipedia?)

[Gregory Maxwell]

On 9/19/06, dmehkeri at swi.com <dmehkeri at swi.com> wrote:
> > Consider what happens if we make a print version of Wikipedia with
> > color images in black and white? Is that a derived work?
>
> Meh. Possibly a derivative work under some laws, I don't know.
>
> Though CC-BY-ND, for instance, explicitly allows transfer to different media,
> and modifications necessary for such.

CC-By-ND leaves a lot of things unanswered.. not as vague as NC, but
it's still ugly.

You didn't comment on my other examples. :)

> > > For starters it isn't mentioned in the copyright FAQ at all.
> > [snip]
> >
> > The copyright FAQ is mostly written for users of content in Wikipedia.
> > Not creators of Wikipedia content.
>
> Sorry, isn't that the case under discussion? By "user of content" we mean people
> including someone else's content in Wikipedia, rather than people using
> Wikipedia's content, right? Because the first question in the FAQ is, in fact,
> "Can I add to Wikipedia something that I got from somewhere else?"

By "users of content" I mean people who want to use Wikipedia content
elsewhere. I thought, reading the whole thing, that it was pretty
clear.. but it seems we need to make it more clear.


> The FAQ has a whole section on licenses. It even has a specific sub-section on
> Creative Commons licenses. There is a general prohibition on that page against
> non-commercial licenses, but nothing about non-derivative, not even in the
> specific sub-section.

Yes, because these are licenses that you'll see used and discussed in
wikipedia. Really the only part the covers adding things in Wikipedia
is "Can I add something to Wikipedia that I got from somewhere else?"
and it's woefully incomplete.

> > See [[Wikipedia:Image use policy]] which states "You can prove that the
> > copyright holder has licensed the image under a free license."
>
> I did in fact look at that page as well, and that is not the relevant section.
> That section is about whether you can upload the media. For example it also has
> the option "you own the rights to the image" and one for "fair use".

...

I'd like to know how you plan on getting a piece of -ND media into
Wikipedia without someone uploading it! :)


> You then go down just a bit further to find what "free license" is acceptable.
> Again, it explicitly forbids non-commercial use licenses, but is silent on
> non-derivative licenses. You then go to another page for "acceptable image tags"
> (WP:TAG).

I'll fix that so it doesn't create any impression of being a complete list.

[snip]

> But if the downstream users are doing something different, then they might not,
> and in any case a fair use claim is not a let to make derivative works
> (notwithstanding media transfers, which as I say is allowed anyway).

I think you misunderstand how fair use is supposed to be used on
enwiki because it is so widely misused.

Our intention with permitting fair use is so that we can excerpt from
copyright works in order to discuss them... which is the entire
purpose of fair use in any case.

As such, someone who copies our article would in almost all cases
carry the same argument.

See [[WP:FUC]].

It should also be noted that most language Wikipedias reject fair use as well.

> It seems to me that CC-BY-ND, therefore, is intermediate between a copyleft and
> fair-use. And we do, as you say, allow fair use, under some circumstances. We
> should therefore allow CC-BY-ND under at least the same circumstances, and
> probably more. No?

We should and do allow CC-BY-ND if we could legally claim fair use of
the material.

However, if we are claiming fair use we should make no mention of
CC-BY-ND because we do not want to make the impression that we are
using the work under CC-BY-ND, that we approve of the license, or that
we would encourage anyone to release content under it.

It's also worth mentioning that CC-By-ND prohibits cropping which we
may actually be required to perform to strengthen our case of fair use
(cropping to minimize our excerpting and avoid taking the core of the
work or to avoid impact on the commercial value of the work).