[WikiEN-l] Systemic bias wrt gender

Sat Nov 25 14:41:50 UTC 2006

The sweep it under the rug defence?  No, that will not do.

On 11/25/06, James Hare <messedrocker at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Separate mailing lists for women? What perfenander.
>
> Guys, we're not going to be improving an encyclopedia/news
> site/dictionary/quote database/species directory/education wiki/series of
> textbooks/media repository/primary source library if we keep bickering.
>
> Jimmy-Jimmy said it best: kick out the bad people.
>
> Then get back to work.
>
> On 11/25/06, Jim Schuler <jim62sch at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I find it sad that someone feels the need to have a separate mailing
> list
> > for women.  Gender bias is an issue that touches all of us and should be
> > discussed openly by *all of us.  *As KC noted, separate but equal is a
> > farce: it is merely separate, not equal, for in the act of separation
> > power
> > is ceded to the majority, a majority that is often boorish and smug in
> its
> > ignorance.
> >
> > It is also sad that when some of the men here spoke out in defence of
> > women,
> > they were attacked for piling on (the offender had slinked off without
> so
> > much as an apology) or are admonished to assume good faith (in the face
> of
> > overwhelming evidence indicating that so doing would be akin to
> swallowing
> > cyanide because a con man told you it was safe).  That several of us
> noted
> > the gender bias and spoke out is a clear indication that a problem
> exists
> > here, and needs to be remedied.  Alas, I do not think that that remedy
> is
> > to
> > merely boot out the offenders, rather we should confront them with
> reason.
> > Obviously, the possibility of changing any one's opinion is slim as
> gender
> > bias, like racial, ethnic or religious bias, is deeply ingrained within
> > the
> > psyche of the offender, and is endemic to our society (both in the real
> > world and at Wikipedia).  However, it is certainly worth our every
> effort
> > to
> > do what we can to break down the the wall of ignorance that isolates and
> > protects the bigoted and biased.
> >
> > On 11/25/06, Puppy <puppy at killerchihuahua.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Jimmy Wales wrote:
> > > > Puppy wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> I appreciate that, Fred. I am not concerned so much about the lack
> of
> > > >> response to my concerns, as I am about the lack of response to
> overt
> > > >> sexist attacks on this mailing list. I am well aware it is not
> > > >> Wikipedia. Most of the people on this list are the same people as
> on
> > > >> Wikipedia. If you call a black man a nigger in the field, you will
> at
> > > >> least /think/ he's a nigger in the house. And don't think the
> > attitude
> > > >> doesn't bleed through, because it does.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > Can someone send me a link to the archive where these attacks took
> > > place?
> > > >
> > > > --Jimbo
> > > >
> > >
> > > If you are speaking about the incident with a lack of response, which
> > > concerned me, it happened on this thread.
> > >
> > > When I started posting to this thread, I was taking exception to the
> > > categorization of [[Blowdryer]] as a "woman's topic". I tossed out a
> few
> > > observations on gender bias. Until I did, I didn't think gender bias
> on
> > > WP was that bad - but my inbox is proving me wrong. I just received
> > > another email, responding to a post I made to this thread:
> > > <pasted email>
> > > On 11/25/06, Puppy wrote:
> > > > > When I first started contributing to this thread I received a
> number
> > > of
> > > > > emails, all from women, all thanking me and encouraging me, yet
> none
> > > of
> > > > > them posted to the list.
> > >
> > > Private email response:
> > > > That doesn't surprise me at all.
> > > >
> > > > Do you think it would be a good idea to have a separate mailing list
> > > > to discuss the problems of gender bias in Wikipedia (both in terms
> of
> > > > the content and the community)?
> > > > Along the lines of [[LinuxChix]] perhaps?
> > >
> > > <end pasted email>
> > >
> > > Why didn't this woman, like the others who have been emailing me, post
> > > to this list? I am getting emails from women, all saying how terrific
> I
> > > am, how glad they are someone is posting these concerns, and now I'm
> > > getting suggestions for a women's mailing list. Why do you think that
> > is?
> > >
> > > Alphax wrote "Women arguing on this list reinforces the view of
> > > "woman-as-empty-headed-shallow-person"."
> > >
> > > This is clearly an overt sexist attack. Let's put the shoe on the
> other
> > > foot - what if most of the posts to this list were by men, and a woman
> > > wrote "Men arguing on this list reinforces the view of
> > > "man-as-stupid-testosterone-driven-lout"? But that isn't really a
> > > parallel, because women don't run this society. Try imagining this -
> > > lets change "women and men" to "black and white", using gender issues
> > > rather than race issues from the r/w: You are a black man. You live in
> a
> > > society where most of the power is wielded by whites. All the bosses
> > > you've ever had have been white. The president has always been white.
> > > There are people who express openly their beliefs that blacks are
> > > substandard. Your religion states you are subservient to whites, and
> > > that is God's plan. Until the 1970s, you did not have autonomy over
> your
> > > body, under the law. Until the 1980s, you could not even own property
> in
> > > some states in your name - your white boss owned it, and in fact could
> > > do what he wanted with it under the law (See Kirchberg v. Feenstra,
> > > 1981). You can be raped by a white person, and if you take it to
> court,
> > > it is often worse than the rape - people make racist remarks, say you
> > > "asked for it."  You walk into a room. Almost everyone is white.
> Someone
> > > makes a racist comment. None of the other people protest, and some
> > > laugh. Do you A) Speak out your convictions strongly and clearly? or
> B)
> > > give a weak laugh and look for the exit door?
> > >
> > > I'm thinking the other women are waiting to see if I'm lynched. That's
> > > why they are emailing me privately, even suggesting a separate mailing
> > > list. *They are intimidated against posting these concerns on this
> > > list.* I personally don't think that "separate but equal" works very
> > > well. I'm speaking up, myself.
> > >
> > > What if the black man had seen a different response? What if someone
> > > made a racist comment or joke, and /all/ the white people in the room
> > > had spoken out, telling the bigot they didn't tolerate such behavior?
> > > Told the bigot to apologize, to take his racist comments elsewhere
> > > because they were not welcome? I think the black man would breathe a
> > > little easier... but he'd still be outnumbered. I hear about a
> > > "welcoming attitude" and "we should be on the lookout for bias or
> other
> > > bad behavior towards women editors and do what we can to mitigate its
> > > effects" yet how many spoke out when Alphax posted his clearly
> > > anti-female post to this list? I'm saying we are in a biased society,
> > > which is reflected in both mens' and womens' attitudes, and if you
> truly
> > > want to get a more balanced editing pool and make women feel welcome
> > > here, no gender bias, whether subtle or overt, can be ignored. Or
> we'll
> > > continue to have a few strong women, fewer as we go up the chain of
> > > power, and the imbalance will continue.
> > >
> > > -kc-
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > > WikiEN-l at Wikipedia.org
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> > > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jim
> > http://iacobomus.blogspot.com/
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
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-- 
Jim
http://iacobomus.blogspot.com/