[WikiEN-l] Systemic bias wrt gender

[James Hare]

Separate mailing lists for women? What perfenander.

Guys, we're not going to be improving an encyclopedia/news
site/dictionary/quote database/species directory/education wiki/series of
textbooks/media repository/primary source library if we keep bickering.

Jimmy-Jimmy said it best: kick out the bad people.

Then get back to work.

On 11/25/06, Jim Schuler <jim62sch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I find it sad that someone feels the need to have a separate mailing list
> for women.  Gender bias is an issue that touches all of us and should be
> discussed openly by *all of us.  *As KC noted, separate but equal is a
> farce: it is merely separate, not equal, for in the act of separation
> power
> is ceded to the majority, a majority that is often boorish and smug in its
> ignorance.
>
> It is also sad that when some of the men here spoke out in defence of
> women,
> they were attacked for piling on (the offender had slinked off without so
> much as an apology) or are admonished to assume good faith (in the face of
> overwhelming evidence indicating that so doing would be akin to swallowing
> cyanide because a con man told you it was safe).  That several of us noted
> the gender bias and spoke out is a clear indication that a problem exists
> here, and needs to be remedied.  Alas, I do not think that that remedy is
> to
> merely boot out the offenders, rather we should confront them with reason.
> Obviously, the possibility of changing any one's opinion is slim as gender
> bias, like racial, ethnic or religious bias, is deeply ingrained within
> the
> psyche of the offender, and is endemic to our society (both in the real
> world and at Wikipedia).  However, it is certainly worth our every effort
> to
> do what we can to break down the the wall of ignorance that isolates and
> protects the bigoted and biased.
>
> On 11/25/06, Puppy <puppy at killerchihuahua.com> wrote:
> >
> > Jimmy Wales wrote:
> > > Puppy wrote:
> > >
> > >> I appreciate that, Fred. I am not concerned so much about the lack of
> > >> response to my concerns, as I am about the lack of response to overt
> > >> sexist attacks on this mailing list. I am well aware it is not
> > >> Wikipedia. Most of the people on this list are the same people as on
> > >> Wikipedia. If you call a black man a nigger in the field, you will at
> > >> least /think/ he's a nigger in the house. And don't think the
> attitude
> > >> doesn't bleed through, because it does.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Can someone send me a link to the archive where these attacks took
> > place?
> > >
> > > --Jimbo
> > >
> >
> > If you are speaking about the incident with a lack of response, which
> > concerned me, it happened on this thread.
> >
> > When I started posting to this thread, I was taking exception to the
> > categorization of [[Blowdryer]] as a "woman's topic". I tossed out a few
> > observations on gender bias. Until I did, I didn't think gender bias on
> > WP was that bad - but my inbox is proving me wrong. I just received
> > another email, responding to a post I made to this thread:
> > <pasted email>
> > On 11/25/06, Puppy wrote:
> > > > When I first started contributing to this thread I received a number
> > of
> > > > emails, all from women, all thanking me and encouraging me, yet none
> > of
> > > > them posted to the list.
> >
> > Private email response:
> > > That doesn't surprise me at all.
> > >
> > > Do you think it would be a good idea to have a separate mailing list
> > > to discuss the problems of gender bias in Wikipedia (both in terms of
> > > the content and the community)?
> > > Along the lines of [[LinuxChix]] perhaps?
> >
> > <end pasted email>
> >
> > Why didn't this woman, like the others who have been emailing me, post
> > to this list? I am getting emails from women, all saying how terrific I
> > am, how glad they are someone is posting these concerns, and now I'm
> > getting suggestions for a women's mailing list. Why do you think that
> is?
> >
> > Alphax wrote "Women arguing on this list reinforces the view of
> > "woman-as-empty-headed-shallow-person"."
> >
> > This is clearly an overt sexist attack. Let's put the shoe on the other
> > foot - what if most of the posts to this list were by men, and a woman
> > wrote "Men arguing on this list reinforces the view of
> > "man-as-stupid-testosterone-driven-lout"? But that isn't really a
> > parallel, because women don't run this society. Try imagining this -
> > lets change "women and men" to "black and white", using gender issues
> > rather than race issues from the r/w: You are a black man. You live in a
> > society where most of the power is wielded by whites. All the bosses
> > you've ever had have been white. The president has always been white.
> > There are people who express openly their beliefs that blacks are
> > substandard. Your religion states you are subservient to whites, and
> > that is God's plan. Until the 1970s, you did not have autonomy over your
> > body, under the law. Until the 1980s, you could not even own property in
> > some states in your name - your white boss owned it, and in fact could
> > do what he wanted with it under the law (See Kirchberg v. Feenstra,
> > 1981). You can be raped by a white person, and if you take it to court,
> > it is often worse than the rape - people make racist remarks, say you
> > "asked for it."  You walk into a room. Almost everyone is white. Someone
> > makes a racist comment. None of the other people protest, and some
> > laugh. Do you A) Speak out your convictions strongly and clearly? or B)
> > give a weak laugh and look for the exit door?
> >
> > I'm thinking the other women are waiting to see if I'm lynched. That's
> > why they are emailing me privately, even suggesting a separate mailing
> > list. *They are intimidated against posting these concerns on this
> > list.* I personally don't think that "separate but equal" works very
> > well. I'm speaking up, myself.
> >
> > What if the black man had seen a different response? What if someone
> > made a racist comment or joke, and /all/ the white people in the room
> > had spoken out, telling the bigot they didn't tolerate such behavior?
> > Told the bigot to apologize, to take his racist comments elsewhere
> > because they were not welcome? I think the black man would breathe a
> > little easier... but he'd still be outnumbered. I hear about a
> > "welcoming attitude" and "we should be on the lookout for bias or other
> > bad behavior towards women editors and do what we can to mitigate its
> > effects" yet how many spoke out when Alphax posted his clearly
> > anti-female post to this list? I'm saying we are in a biased society,
> > which is reflected in both mens' and womens' attitudes, and if you truly
> > want to get a more balanced editing pool and make women feel welcome
> > here, no gender bias, whether subtle or overt, can be ignored. Or we'll
> > continue to have a few strong women, fewer as we go up the chain of
> > power, and the imbalance will continue.
> >
> > -kc-
> >
> >
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>
>
>
> --
> Jim
> http://iacobomus.blogspot.com/
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