[WikiEN-l] Introducing a new mailing list

[Ryan Wetherell]

But separatist action just doesn't seem to me like a wiki-friendly
concept.  That said, I don't have any problem with WikiChix or its
mailing list, especially now that the latter is no longer hosted by
the WMF.

--Ryan

On 12/6/06, Phil Sandifer <Snowspinner at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Dec 6, 2006, at 12:25 AM, Steve Bennett wrote:
>
> > On 12/5/06, Alphax (Wikipedia email) <alphasigmax at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Personally, like others, I'm slightly saddened that there is a need
> >>> for this. However, there *being* a need for it, satisfying that need
> >>> is the right thing to do. Hopefully one day the list will disband
> >>> from
> >>> lack of use.
> >>>
> >>
> >> ... whoa. Care to rephrase that?
> >
> > Hopefully one day the women in the Wikipedia community will no longer
> > feel threatened on the main list, and will thus not need their own
> > list. That is, if their list is a cure, I hope the ailment goes away.
>
> Well put. Allow me to briefly put my gender privilege to good use and
> to engage in some of the flaming that Tim Starling has observed that
> I, as a male, am apparently more likely to enjoy.
>
> I have never been so disgusted with this community as I am right now,
> and particularly with Greg and The Cunctator, both users I have in
> the past had tremendous respect for. Greg's public shunning of the
> idea of gendered discussion and The Cunctator's stunt of subscribing
> to the list so he could play martyr were bald-faced power moves that
> had no content other than sending a clear message to female
> contributors that they'd better not get out of line. They were
> shameful power plays. And if anyone fails to understand why that is,
> I can only say that you are why this list needs to exist, and why it
> needs to be female-only.
>
> We do not get to define the terms of the gender debate. We do not get
> to insist that we have a gender-neutral space, or a sufficiently
> gender-neutral space that it is clear that any discussion of gender
> can happen publicly. We, in short, do not get to dictate to women how
> they ought to feel about the systemic bias we've set up.
>
> Is it useful to completely exclude us from the conversation? Probably
> not, but that doesn't seem to be what's happening. What's happening
> is that there's a desire on the part of some women to be able to have
> a conversation amongst the people who get to define the problem,
> instead of amongst the people who don't. When the problem is defined,
> some aspects of the solution will probably have to include men. But
> men don't get to define sexism. You can't both cause the problem and
> define it for the people you're affecting.
>
> Why is the list not open to men? Because there are men like The
> Cunctator and Greg, who are happy to declare that they know how
> discrimination should be talked about, and anybody who feels
> uncomfortable talking to them can go to hell. (One wonders, of
> course, why anyone in their right mind would feel comfortable talking
> to them after that.) And men who will deny the very existence and
> possibility of the systemic bias every time it comes down, struggling
> mightily to shut down the discussion. Because there are complaints,
> frustrations, and problems that people want to express without having
> a chorus of men commenting on it and denying it. Because one of the
> first steps in healing a community with broken gender relations is to
> give women (it is, sadly, always women) a forum where they can
> express things and get a response of "God, yes, I know what you mean.
> I thought it was just me!" instead of some form of "I don't think
> that's valid."
>
> As for the Wiki Chix (A great name, by the way), sorry I haven't been
> more active in this discussion (either this one or the systemic bias
> one), and sorry the situation is such that the separatist move is
> necessary. If there's anything I can do to help the cause, let me
> know. And if there's nothing whatsoever I can do to help the cause,
> well, good luck.
>
> Best,
> Phil Sandifer
> sandifer at english.ufl.edu
>
> You are standing in an open field west of a white house, with a
> boarded front door. There is a small mailbox here.
>
>  >
>
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