[Gendergap] Gendergap Digest, Vol 4, Issue 17
Karen Sue Rolph
karenrolph at hotmail.com
Mon May 23 14:13:56 UTC 2011
Dear Colleagues,
1) Clarification: I am teaching students how to edit and author in
Wikipedia. Topical suggestions for a methodology are welcome.
2) On motherhood: it depends on whether referring to the global situation, or U.S. This argument is extensive, and in most responses, symptomatic of the problem. Mothers, especially single mothers and children, are vulnerable populations under numerous social criteria. Mothers who don't hold a job and have nannies are relatively few; they may still suffer from lack of 'voice'. Again, concrete data are the most useful for understanding gaps and constraints mothers face.
ksrolph
> From: gendergap-request at lists.wikimedia.org
> Subject: Gendergap Digest, Vol 4, Issue 17
> To: gendergap at lists.wikimedia.org
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 05:40:25 +0000
>
> Send Gendergap mailing list submissions to
> gendergap at lists.wikimedia.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> gendergap-request at lists.wikimedia.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> gendergap-owner at lists.wikimedia.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Gendergap digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on, Wikimedia Commons
> (The Richardsons)
> 2. Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons (Bob Sponge)
> 3. Women's College Video Project on Commons Media of the Day (Pharos)
> 4. Re: Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons (Sarah)
> 5. Re: Gendergap Digest, Vol 4, Issue 16 (Karen Sue Rolph)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 21:26:53 -0400
> From: The Richardsons <donsav2 at optonline.net>
> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on,
> Wikimedia Commons
> To: gendergap at lists.wikimedia.org
> Message-ID: <4DD714DD.2000106 at optonline.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 10:37:41 -0600 (MDT)
> From: "Fred Bauder"<fredbaud at fairpoint.net>
> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] [Commons-l] Fwd: Photo of the Day on
> Wikimedia Commons
> To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects"
> <gendergap at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <44058.66.243.192.69.1305736661.squirrel at webmail.fairpoint.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
> > > On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 10:16, Fred Bauder<fredbaud at fairpoint.net>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> >> >>
> >>> >> > My point is this: a significant number of women (current and
> >> >> potential
> >>> >> > editors) don't want to work in a "I like the big tits" atmosphere,
> >>> >> > whatever
> >>> >> > was meant by it. Others don't mind. Point is that some*do* mind.
> >> >>
> > >
> > >
> >> >> So, was it an inane remark or a symptom of an atmosphere? I'm pretty
> >> >> sure
> >> >> you don't want to see an authoritarian crackdown either. We come down
> >> >> heavy on Wikipedia sometimes, but for much more egregious behavior.
> >> >>
> >> >> The problem is that such moves don't change culture, in fact, may
> >> >> sometimes facilitate it, if traction can be gained by aggrieved users
> >> >> who
> >> >> feel they are being treated unfairly.
> > >
> > >
> > > I see it as an inane remark that's symptomatic of the culture, in the
> > > sense
> > > that the poster thought it appropriate to post it.
> > >
> > > Moving away from discussing this image now, to the broader issue, we do
> > > see
> > > a fair number of comments like that on Wikipedia, and letting them pass
> > > without comment simply means they'll never stop.
> > >
> > > We had a situation recently where we were discussing a BLP, and part of
> > > the
> > > content was that the woman had experienced a serious sexual assault. In
> > > the
> > > course of discussing how to approach it, a couple of remarks were made
> > > that
> > > tended to downplay what had happened to her, and one person -- in a
> > > different section on the talk page -- commented on how attractive she
> > > was,
> > > and how he wanted to have her babies.
> > >
> > > I was so disgusted by this that I felt (and to some extent still feel)
> > > that
> > > I didn't want to be involved in the project anymore, because why am I
> > > wasting my time in that kind of atmosphere? I felt that it said something
> > > about me, rather than about them.
> > >
> > > I also had to decide whether to say something, or let it lie, and if I
> > > did
> > > say something, I had to make sure I was polite and circumspect, rather
> > > than
> > > screaming it from the rooftops, which is what I wanted to do. And it
> > > suddenly felt like nothing had changed in the last 40 years, that these
> > > remarks still appear, and that women are still made to feel bad if they
> > > challenge them. And if we do challenge them, must be extra polite about
> > > it.
> > > Not make a fuss.
> > >
> > > So that felt kind of depressing.
> > >
> > > Sarah
> Now we're getting down to a serious discussion. The actual horns of the
> dilemma a Wikipedia administrator is in. In a way being limited to text
> fails to communicate the immediate expression of disgust that would
> happen in a face-to-face situation, so there is a failure to communicate
> feedback effectively. A polite note fails.
>
> Fred
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Although I do encourage Sarah to speak her mind, I encourage her not to "scream it from the rooftops" because this could start a flame war. I definitely would not do that if I were you. But you also, as you said, not be too polite. Don't sugar coat things." That's my opinion I have never stumbled upon that on Wikipedia (I don't contribute especially often), and I hope I never do. However if I do, I will be sure to say something.
> --With well wishes.
> RDW2210
>
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/attachments/20110520/62df7472/attachment-0001.htm
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 00:32:29 +0200
> From: Bob Sponge <metzgerhandwerk.hat.tradition at googlemail.com>
> Subject: [Gendergap] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
> To: Gendergap at lists.wikimedia.org
> Message-ID: <BANLkTim8+LYejrWCOQGtVdhuUNTKh689+Q at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> dear sarah
>
> i want to give you a small feedback about your entries here about a
> comment i did. (i found this list with a notice on my userpage in the
> german wikipedia)
>
> "Pro i like her big tits :-) Bunnyfrosch (Diskussion) 22:59, 2 January
> 2011 (UTC)"
>
> there were 2 contra votes before, one argued not educational and
> questioned: "Why manga woman rhymes with big tits?" the other replies
> the "not educational" accusation. both arguments are bullshit in my
> opinion. because all is educational or nothing, but i am to obliging
> to told a another users his/her meaning is bullshit. for example if i
> want to know how a piece of shit looks like, a picture of a piece of
> shit ist educational, and if i want to know something about the
> frontieres of texas, a picture of a map coult very
> helpfully/educational. if people naming something not educational,
> they want to say somthing diffrent. ( note this is my personal pov!)
> but they vote this way, but really really often simply mean: "i hate
> this pic" or "i hate this user" or "i hate every kind of nudity in the
> commons"
>
> in german i often give persons a longer feedback, in english i spare
> the longer feedback. (you can read why^^) so i choose a short pro
> vote, applying to the first contra. and by the way, i am not addicted
> to big or small boobs - i couldn't care less!
> if i had choose a longer explanation for my vote, it would like:
> "wikipedia needs well draught anime pictures, with common licences,
> this one is a great animation of a girl or transsexual in a beautyfull
> landscape". so, thats the reason i vote with pro.
>
> but there was no need for a argumentaion, when the contra-side argues
> with "not educational"
>
> i hope this will help you, to understand my diction in the comment.
>
> best regards
> le frog du rabbit
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 12:06:18 -0400
> From: Pharos <pharosofalexandria at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Gendergap] Women's College Video Project on Commons Media of
> the Day
> To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects
> <gendergap at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Cc: Gabriel Mugar <gmugar at syr.edu>, Jennifer Geigel Mikulay
> <jgmikulay at gmail.com>
> Message-ID: <BANLkTikh-S=GQnjZqBaaqcJ6-8fMJCjgWg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hi Gendergap ameliorators,
>
> In rather more positive Commons Main Page news, I am happy to announce
> that today's selected Media of the Day is a student video produced as
> part of a course project at Alverno College, a liberal arts women's
> college located in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Media_of_the_day
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Drumming_Basics.ogv
>
> Congratulations to Drummergirl3, and her whole class; rock on, girl!
>
> See here for background on Jennifer Geigel Mikulay's awesome Advanced
> Media Course at Alverno College:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:SUP#Alverno_College_--_Advanced_Media_Studies_--_Spring_2011
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Videos_by_Alverno_College_Advanced_Media_Studies
>
> And see some related wiki video resources here:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Lights_Camera_Wiki
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wikipedia_Video_and_Education
>
> Thanks,
> Richard
> (User:Phraos)
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 18:50:03 -0600
> From: Sarah <slimvirgin at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Fwd: Photo of the Day on Wikimedia Commons
> To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects
> <gendergap at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID: <BANLkTikr6RMijDs2kP0_f-sGx+zG8Xt99w at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Sat, May 21, 2011 at 16:32, Bob Sponge
> <metzgerhandwerk.hat.tradition at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > dear sarah
> >
> > i want to give you a small feedback about your entries here about a
> > comment i did. (i found this list with a notice on my userpage in the
> > german wikipedia)
> >
> > "Pro i like her big tits :-) Bunnyfrosch (Diskussion) 22:59, 2 January
> > 2011 (UTC)"
> >
> > there were 2 contra votes before, one argued not educational and
> > questioned: "Why manga woman rhymes with big tits?" the other replies
> > the "not educational" accusation. both arguments are bullshit in my
> > opinion. because all is educational or nothing, but i am to obliging
> > to told a another users his/her meaning is bullshit. for example if i
> > want to know how a piece of shit looks like, a picture of a piece of
> > shit ist educational, and if i want to know something about the
> > frontieres of texas, a picture of a map coult very
> > helpfully/educational. if people naming something not educational,
> > they want to say somthing diffrent. ( note this is my personal pov!)
> > but they vote this way, but really really often simply mean: "i hate
> > this pic" or "i hate this user" or "i hate every kind of nudity in the
> > commons"
> >
> > in german i often give persons a longer feedback, in english i spare
> > the longer feedback. (you can read why^^) so i choose a short pro
> > vote, applying to the first contra. and by the way, i am not addicted
> > to big or small boobs - i couldn't care less!
> > if i had choose a longer explanation for my vote, it would like:
> > "wikipedia needs well draught anime pictures, with common licences,
> > this one is a great animation of a girl or transsexual in a beautyfull
> > landscape". ?so, thats the reason i vote with pro.
> >
> > but there was no need for a argumentaion, when the contra-side argues
> > with "not educational"
> >
> > i hope this will help you, to understand my diction in the comment.
> >
> > best regards
> > le frog du rabbit
> >
> Bob, thanks for your explanation. It's appreciated.
>
> The thing is this: some of us would like to attract more women editors
> to Wikipedia, so that women have more of a voice, and perhaps also to
> change the culture of Wikipedia a little.
>
> It's arguably not in a woman's interests to hang around on a talk page
> where people are posting about big tits. It may be in the project's
> interests to have more women there, but it's hard to see how it could
> be in the interests of the individual women.
>
> It doesn't really matter what the intention is behind the words,
> because all we see are the words themselves. For some women (not all,
> but some), these words effectively mean, "The way you see the world is
> not represented here," or "Go away."
>
> That's one of the reasons it's a problem.
>
> Sarah
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 22:40:09 -0700
> From: Karen Sue Rolph <karenrolph at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Gendergap Digest, Vol 4, Issue 16
> To: <gendergap at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID: <SNT128-W378C6304C4C98C02520374D5720 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> Dear Colleagues,
>
> I'd like to introduce myself as new to editing and writing in Wikipedia. I especially took note of a recent New York Times piece on the low percentage of female contributors to Wikipedia; I felt it personally as an Op-Ed Project alumna.
>
> I'm a scholar, and gender is one of my specializations as an anthropologist. I've studied gender in Japan, Europe, and Latin America, as well as North America. I am committed to social justice and improved human rights (and U.N. Articles) conditions for all, but especially women, mothers, and children.
>
> I can see from viewing Gendergap, and other communiques within the Wikipedia nexus, that sometimes humor is difficult to account for. Humor seems so important, but seems to offend someone somewhere. It seems we all share the problem of wanting to communicate, but without a sure way to measure the consequences of what is said. I will be classed as an 'old' female, but given my Native American heritage, I want to remind friends that many cultures think of us as elders. Gentlemen should too.
>
> My scholarship is far ranging, I am a product of U.C. Berkeley and Stanford U., I want to be supportive of all I can in terms of gender balance. For this reason, beginning in the fall, I will be teaching classes at nearby institutions, with an emphasis on female contributions. My work has already begun, organizing a curriculum. I will be watchful that young women survive and thrive in the environment. Let us see how it goes.
>
> I would like to weigh in on the ways to treat females project- that circulated a couple or few weeks back- if others will permit me. There's an obvious reason women contribute less; we are busy with our babies and children. I am working on getting 'duration-spent' numbers in on that, so we can go to a concrete understanding of the time dedicated to raising young souls. (Not meant as a joke).
>
> Meanwhile, my warm greetings to all on this list, regardless of gender.
>
> Karen Sue Rolph
>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/attachments/20110522/72a96c11/attachment.htm
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap at lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
>
>
> End of Gendergap Digest, Vol 4, Issue 17
> ****************************************
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/gendergap/attachments/20110523/3d230d3c/attachment-0001.htm
More information about the Gendergap
mailing list