[Foundation-l] Fwd: Wikimedia India Program Trust

Wed Nov 23 07:59:14 UTC 2011

haha, I like that expression ... need to remember the ear on the ground:)

the big problem with a trust is imo, that it is not possible for an
ordinary person to get involved in a decisive role. a chapter takes anybody
as member and anybody can be elected to its board.

rupert
On Nov 23, 2011 7:21 AM, "Bishakha Datta" <bishakhadatta at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks for the reply, Rupert, and for pushing me to think harder. I like
> that!
>
> Without repeating myself and building on your questions, here's what I'll
> say:
>
> I agree that chapters are an important way to take the wikimedia movement
> forward across the globe. No issues with that. I'm still not convinced that
> *any entity* should see itself at the centre of the movement either
> globally or in a country - either because it has members, or because it has
> funding, or because it is an entity. For any reason. Why is it important
> for an entity in a volunteer movement to be at the centre at all?
>
> If there is anyone or anything that I see at the centre of the wikimedia
> movement, it is individual volunteers - who work on the projects, edit day
> in and day out, do other things etc. When entities and formal organizations
> start up in a country, individual volunteers who are not affiliated to any
> of these start seeing themselves as 'lower order volunteers' in some way;
> to me, this is tremendously sad. I've heard editors in India say, "I'm just
> a volunteer" (to describe themselves, since they are neither office bearers
> in the chapter, nor work in the program trust). When I hear that, I feel
> we're doing something wrong - the presence of entities in a country should
> make individual volunteers and editors feel supported and part of this
> universe, not devalued or disconnected.
>
> In response to your questions about not doing it differently in India, I
> think there's good reason for us to experiment in different ways in
> different geographies - wasn't wikipedia itself a grand experiment to begin
> with? But yes, experiment in a way that does not exclude the communities
> that have organically grown in these places. If we really want to sustain
> the projects at a time when the editor base is declining, I do think some
> experimentation may be in order. Agree that things don't work out should be
> dropped, but maybe new ways of doing things can also provide new answers.
>
> And yes, a one-size-fits-all solution is unlikely to work, given how
> culturally diverse the world is. So yes, boots on the ground, but also ear
> to the ground. :)
>
> Cheers
> Bishakha
>
> On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 11:53 AM, rupert THURNER
> <rupert.thurner at gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > hi bishaka,
> >
> > many thanks for your mail! i like a lot your attitude a lot to challenge
> > constantly existing ways of thinking and doing :)
> >
> > just let us look on others. our exemplary organizations are not doing
> > anything different than in all other countries:
> > * http://www.indianredcross.org/sb.htm
> > * http://www.msfindia.in/
> > * national indian football leage
> > * http://www.wwfindia.org/
> >
> > coming to the other point you made about "living up to expectations". i
> am
> > pretty sure you know that the chapters are "per definition" at the center
> > stage, like wmf is. and you know of the careful ant patient proceeding
> > which led, in a second try, to a successful UK chapter. and the
> thoughtful
> > and friendly and listening proceeding to make every organization in the
> > wiki universe live up to the expectations and get better, which now can
> be
> > seen exemplary by planning the future fundraising and fund disemination.
> >
> > is there a reason why the wikimedia movement should address it
> differently
> > in india? why not be patient? why not be consistent? why not do like the
> > other big ones, surely much more experienced in india than we are?
> >
> > rupert
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 04:08, Bishakha Datta <bishakhadatta at gmail.com
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Hari, Tinu, and Theo,
> > >
> > > Thank you for your heartfelt emails; all of them made me think, and
> want
> > to
> > > take this conversation forward.
> > >
> > > One of the things I do want to say is that despite all the openness
> > within
> > > the wiki-universe (and there is loads of it, no question), there are
> > > certain assumptions or 'logics' that are treated as sacred or as
> givens -
> > > these assumptions are rarely challenged or questioned, let alone
> explored
> > > in any depth. And any attempt to challenge these assumptions is treated
> > > almost as sacrilege.
> > >
> > > One of these assumptions is the idea that once a chapter has started
> > > operating in a country, no other entity has any business to be there -
> > > regardless of the size or potential of that country. This has been
> > > expressed in many emails on this thread, where the India chapter has
> > > implicitly and explicitly been positioned as legitimate - that which
> > > deserves to be there - and the program trust as illegitimate (or some
> > sort
> > > of trespasser or gate-crasher).
> > >
> > > A related assumption is that the single-entity model is, by default,
> and
> > > without any questioning or critical analysis, the best one for every
> > > country in the world, including India. (Yes, this model may work for
> many
> > > countries - the question is: does it work for all? Is it the only
> > workable
> > > model?)
> > >
> > > For example, the European Union has a population of 502 million (27
> > > countries, 27 official languages) [1] - and 15-20 chapters if I'm not
> > > mistaken.
> > >
> > > India has a population of 1.2 billion (28 states, 7 union territories,
> > > atleast 28 official languages) [2], [3] - and 2 entities.
> > >
> > > If this data were to be presented to someone outside of the wikimedia
> > > movement, he or she might actually argue that India needs more
> entities,
> > > not less, to accomplish the movement's goal of spreading free knowledge
> > to
> > > people in India. An outsider may not understand why the arrival of a
> > second
> > > entity is causing so much angst and anxiety, more so when funding
> sources
> > > do not seem to be scarce.
> > >
> > > Related to the assumption that a chapter is the only legitimate entity
> in
> > > any country is the idea of entitlement. I quote from Hari's email:
> > "...this
> > > new development seems to indicate that the chapter, which has the
> > potential
> > > to better represent the community doesn't get to be at the center stage
> > > anymore."
> > >
> > > I am unable to see why the chapter - or for that matter, any entity,
> > should
> > > feel it is 'entitled' to be centre-stage without doing anything to
> prove
> > > that it deserves to be centre-stage. Like any other organization, the
> > > chapter will have to prove itself, both to its members, and to the
> > > community. Then, and only then, can it slowly, (if at all), start
> laying
> > > any claim to moving towards the centre or the stage.
> > >
> > > And yes, in much the same vein, the trust will have to prove itself
> too -
> > > via programs that yield measurable results. Not to members, since it
> > > doesn't have those, but to the movement at large. Then, and only then,
> > will
> > > it have credibility in a broader sense. (In a related aside, I don't
> > think
> > > anyone feels that paid staff should be held to lower standards; that
> > would
> > > be very bizarre. But paid staff should be treated with the same respect
> > > with which volunteers are treated; they're human too).
> > >
> > > So really, what is the problem with these two entities co-existing in
> > > India? I'm open to being convinced there is a problem - if I can see
> what
> > > this problem actually is.
> > >
> > > Best
> > > Bishakha
> > >
> > > [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_European_Union
> > >
> > > [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_India
> > >
> > > [3]
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_with_official_status_in_India
> > >
> > > [4]
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_chapters#Existing_chapters
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