[Foundation-l] foundation-l Digest, Vol 58, Issue 130

Sat Jan 24 00:20:19 UTC 2009

Mensaje citado por foundation-l-request en lists.wikimedia.org:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Michael Bimmler)
>    2. Re: Re-licensing (George Herbert)
>    3. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Thomas Dalton)
>    4. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Erik Moeller)
>    5. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Ziko van Dijk)
>    6. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Delphine M?nard)
>    7. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Thomas Dalton)
>    8. Re: Re-licensing (Thomas Dalton)
>    9. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Brian)
>   10. Re: Wikia leasing office space to WMF (Delphine M?nard)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 23:11:20 +0100
> From: Michael Bimmler <mbimmler en gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> 	<foundation-l en lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> 	<353e9f360901231411k3f1bac0av7484a37e1fd98df en mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Brian <Brian.Mingus en colorado.edu> wrote:
> >Quit calling us
> > trolls, crackpots and kooks and simply address the matters in a factual way.
>
>
> Here's a suggestion for everyone: Stop the allusions to conspiracies
> ("tax-deductible money shifted to for-profit companies") *and* stop
> the name-calling.
>
> M.
> --
> Michael Bimmler
> mbimmler en gmail.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 14:13:05 -0800
> From: George Herbert <george.herbert en gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Re-licensing
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> 	<foundation-l en lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> 	<38a7bf7c0901231413v14639b08g77fa1a696c9781ae en mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 8:22 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton en gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > > I'm sorry, Thomas, but until people learn to use jurisprudential
> > > concepts such as "moral rights" properly, I have a moral obligation to
> > > point out where they are used mistakenly.  This is not a question of
> > > "the world outside the legal profession" (and, indeed, if you were a
> > > member of the legal profession -- or a philosopher -- you wouldn't
> > > make the mistake of supposing this).  Philosophy of law is accessible
> > > to people who aren't lawyers -- even you. But it's clear that the word
> > > "moral rights" is being thrown around here by people who are only
> > > casually familiar with the concept. When you have actually given some
> > > study to jurisprudential philosophers (see, e.g., H.L.A. Hart and Lon
> > > Fuller) and can offer some more sophisticated philosophical analysis
> > > than you offer here, I will be able to take your pronunciamentos more
> > > seriously.
> >
> > Where do you think laws come from? Do you think they appear from
> > nowhere? They are created by politicians (and sometimes judges) based
> > on moral values. Those moral values imply certain moral rights whether
> > they are written down in statute (or case law) or not.
> >
>
> Used relative to copyright law, the term unambiguously means what Mike is
> saying, the rights that Europe (and others) have assigned to actual authors
> distinct from copyright owners etc.
>
> The specific term as used in copyright law (as Mike says, a "term of the
> art" in that field) has no legal utility in the United States, as those
> rights in question are not acknowledged by US copyright law or precedent.
>
> This is a discussion about copyright law and licenses under / related to it,
> is it not?  And not philosophy writ large?
>
>
> There was a slight danger in the Foundation chosing to hire Mike as counsel,
> that he has a long-established tendency to poke fun at people ( cf. Godwin's
> Law, and more long painful Usenet discussions from 20 plus years ago than I
> care to remember at the moment...).  This is going over rather badly with
> some people's sense of moral indignation over licensing and copyright
> issues.
> HI, I AM NEW IN ALL THIS THING, PLEASE I NEED ALL OF YOU HELP ME.I AM CUBAN, AND MY
ENGLISH, IS NOT VERY GOOD,SO PLEASE SEND ME THE MESSAGES IN SPANISH, SO I CAN UNDERSTAND
YOU.

> --
> -george william herbert
> george.herbert en gmail.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 22:13:23 +0000
> From: Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton en gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> 	<foundation-l en lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> 	<a4359dff0901231413q4d5d26e2y524066da6453ce2c en mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> 2009/1/23 Erik Moeller <erik en wikimedia.org>:
> > 2009/1/23 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton en gmail.com>:
> >>. Did you consider the PR cost when weighing it all up?
> >
> > Of course. It's a normal transaction and any noise about it is likely
> > going to be ephemeral. We will continue to calmly and sensibly explain
> > it to reasonable people, and that's all there is to it.
>
> Sounds good. Could you calmly and sensibly explain it to me, then? How
> did you come to decide that the addition benefits of working in
> Wikia's offices were worth the extra money? (I'm willing to accept
> that there could be a good explanation, I'd just like to see it.)
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 14:20:10 -0800
> From: Erik Moeller <erik en wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> 	<foundation-l en lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> 	<b80736c80901231420j23f86c88kaf585cae6c9c7b7 en mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> 2009/1/23 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton en gmail.com>:
> > Sounds good. Could you calmly and sensibly explain it to me, then? How
> > did you come to decide that the addition benefits of working in
> > Wikia's offices were worth the extra money? (I'm willing to accept
> > that there could be a good explanation, I'd just like to see it.)
>
> I already named some of them - greater proximity, shared kitchen use,
> shared speakerphone use, established Internet connectivity. The other
> space we were looking at also had noise issues: open concept with two
> other tenants, and some noise every day at 6PM due to music lessons in
> the same building.
> --
> Erik M?ller
> Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation
>
> Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 23:46:23 +0100
> From: Ziko van Dijk <zvandijk en googlemail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> 	<foundation-l en lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> 	<dcb629f40901231446w31e5e214i9d10410a121a8fbe en mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> 2009/1/23 Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen en gmail.com>
> >
> >
> > The natural state of these discussions is that there are always people
> > pissing in the wind. That spoils things somewhat.
> >
>
> Hear hear, true words in a typical Dutch wording. :-)
> I am amazed about the transparency and openess the staff members are giving
> here, and I am looking forward to the results of these splendid work
> conditions.
>
> Kind regards
> Ziko
>
>
> "Wer durch des Argwohns Brille schaut,
> sieht Raupen selbst im Sauerkraut."
> Wilhelm Busch
>
> --
> Ziko van Dijk
> NL-Silvolde
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 00:13:44 +0100
> From: Delphine M?nard <notafishz en gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> 	<foundation-l en lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> 	<453b6e50901231513r161f7f35i895af92d2efd5755 en mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 20:53, Brian <Brian.Mingus en colorado.edu> wrote:
> > I'm glad someone is concerned about this issue. Wikia has always smacked of
> > "they wouldn't let us show ads on Wikipedia, so here is the for-profit
> > branch of Wikipedia with ads." There are potential conflicts of interest at
> > nearly every level of the Wikia/Wikipedia relationship.
>
> I never thought I would say what comes next.
> As much as I have been a fierce defender of a clear cut between Wikia
> and Wikimedia, I must admit that I find this solution to be one of the
> best things that has happened to the usability project.
>
> About space: been there, and yes, Wikia's headquarters are a street
> away, so really easy to plan meetings and make sure things happen in
> coordinated fashion between the Wikimedia office and the Usability
> project.
>
> About working near Wikia: Wikia, as was said elsewhere, is one of the
> biggest Mediawiki users out there and therefore has, in my opinion,
> probably the best incentive to make sure that Mediawiki develops in a
> way that makes sense for the users. They already have a pretty big
> developper team, and having them at hand will definitely broaden the
> usability project vision on what a wiki can/should do to be more user
> friendly.
>
> Who more than a commercial user of Mediawiki has an interest in its
> evolution _for the best_ of users?
>
> I see absolutely no conflict of interest. Where? Seriously? Wikia is
> renting walls, tables and chairs to the Wikimedia Foundation, that's
> all. And on top of that, they bring to the coffee machine talks tons
> of ideas and experience in the daily use of the software.
>
> And frankly, without this thread, everyone would have forgotten the
> move two days from now and seen nothing in it. Gee, it's time to grow
> up and stop seeing the cabal everywhere.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Delphine
> --
> ~notafish
>
> NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails will get lost.
> Ceci n'est pas une endive - http://blog.notanendive.org
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 23:16:45 +0000
> From: Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton en gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> 	<foundation-l en lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> 	<a4359dff0901231516h761da0efu645e146f1f5145bb en mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> 2009/1/23 Erik Moeller <erik en wikimedia.org>:
> > 2009/1/23 Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton en gmail.com>:
> >> Sounds good. Could you calmly and sensibly explain it to me, then? How
> >> did you come to decide that the addition benefits of working in
> >> Wikia's offices were worth the extra money? (I'm willing to accept
> >> that there could be a good explanation, I'd just like to see it.)
> >
> > I already named some of them - greater proximity, shared kitchen use,
> > shared speakerphone use, established Internet connectivity. The other
> > space we were looking at also had noise issues: open concept with two
> > other tenants, and some noise every day at 6PM due to music lessons in
> > the same building.
>
> I was looking for something a little more quantitative. I know it is
> difficult to quantify these things, which is why, in my experience,
> charities usually err on the side of caution. In fact, the model
> governing documents for the UK Charities Commission explicitly forbids
> any such dealings with companies that share directors with the charity
> (I'm not sure the law requires such strict rules, but they are
> certainly recommended).
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 23:18:57 +0000
> From: Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton en gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Re-licensing
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> 	<foundation-l en lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> 	<a4359dff0901231518qc4a97ddj500252ba76a65bf7 en mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> 2009/1/23 George Herbert <george.herbert en gmail.com>:
> > This is a discussion about copyright law and licenses under / related to it,
> > is it not?  And not philosophy writ large?
>
> It was, I think we drifted a little off-topic.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:35:20 -0700
> From: Brian <Brian.Mingus en colorado.edu>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> 	<foundation-l en lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> 	<9839a05c0901231535o5b09fda3j977c5f60e12fab68 en mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> This time next year I have no doubt Wikipedia will be much more usable.
> Delphine, this sentence is the first time I have ever typed the word
> 'cabal'.
>
> I do hope people continue to express concern about the Wikipedia/Wikia
> relationship. The existence of Wikia doesn't make a whole lot of sense,
> except the $$$ kind.
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 4:13 PM, Delphine M?nard <notafishz en gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 20:53, Brian <Brian.Mingus en colorado.edu> wrote:
> > > I'm glad someone is concerned about this issue. Wikia has always smacked
> > of
> > > "they wouldn't let us show ads on Wikipedia, so here is the for-profit
> > > branch of Wikipedia with ads." There are potential conflicts of interest
> > at
> > > nearly every level of the Wikia/Wikipedia relationship.
> >
> > I never thought I would say what comes next.
> > As much as I have been a fierce defender of a clear cut between Wikia
> > and Wikimedia, I must admit that I find this solution to be one of the
> > best things that has happened to the usability project.
> >
> > About space: been there, and yes, Wikia's headquarters are a street
> > away, so really easy to plan meetings and make sure things happen in
> > coordinated fashion between the Wikimedia office and the Usability
> > project.
> >
> > About working near Wikia: Wikia, as was said elsewhere, is one of the
> > biggest Mediawiki users out there and therefore has, in my opinion,
> > probably the best incentive to make sure that Mediawiki develops in a
> > way that makes sense for the users. They already have a pretty big
> > developper team, and having them at hand will definitely broaden the
> > usability project vision on what a wiki can/should do to be more user
> > friendly.
> >
> > Who more than a commercial user of Mediawiki has an interest in its
> > evolution _for the best_ of users?
> >
> > I see absolutely no conflict of interest. Where? Seriously? Wikia is
> > renting walls, tables and chairs to the Wikimedia Foundation, that's
> > all. And on top of that, they bring to the coffee machine talks tons
> > of ideas and experience in the daily use of the software.
> >
> > And frankly, without this thread, everyone would have forgotten the
> > move two days from now and seen nothing in it. Gee, it's time to grow
> > up and stop seeing the cabal everywhere.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Delphine
> > --
> > ~notafish
> >
> > NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails will get
> > lost.
> > Ceci n'est pas une endive - http://blog.notanendive.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l en lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 01:08:36 +0100
> From: Delphine M?nard <notafishz en gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Wikia leasing office space to WMF
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List
> 	<foundation-l en lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> 	<453b6e50901231608x58666cd0m8fb1bdab8462b77a en mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 00:35, Brian <Brian.Mingus en colorado.edu> wrote:
> > This time next year I have no doubt Wikipedia will be much more usable.
> > Delphine, this sentence is the first time I have ever typed the word
> > 'cabal'.
>
> :D
>
> To be fair, I didn't so mean the word cabal for your intervention as
> for other interventions in this thread, but yours was the shortest to
> answer to :P
>
> > I do hope people continue to express concern about the Wikipedia/Wikia
> > relationship. The existence of Wikia doesn't make a whole lot of sense,
> > except the $$$ kind.
>
> Yes, as I pointed out, I am the first to have been concerned and I
> will be again when there is reason to be. I firmly believe this
> renting of offices isn't a reason.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Delphine
> --
> ~notafish
>
> NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails will get lost.
> Ceci n'est pas une endive - http://blog.notanendive.org
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
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>
> End of foundation-l Digest, Vol 58, Issue 130
> *********************************************
>

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