[Foundation-l] Concern for the safety of Wikimanians in Alexandria

[Dan Rosenthal]

Gerard, I'm not denying that there is value to spreading free  
knowledge in countries that need it most. But what I do argue is that  
Wikimania is the best way to do so, and at what cost do we do that? A  
conference in Dubai would likely stimulate the ar.wikipedia even more,  
and yet it would not have anywhere near as many concerns as Alexandria.

Wikimedia should not be worrying about how to fit into other culture's  
point of view. What's important is Wikimedia's point of view, and how  
other countries can help support it the best. You're talking about  
risks of culture changing and challenging us, but nobody is arguing  
that. We're talking about risks in a single event.

-Dan
On Mar 7, 2008, at 9:58 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:

> Hoi,
> What we differ on is the basic question:
>
>   - What is WIkimania there for
>
> Of primary importance is its value to spread and spread our message.  
> You do
> spread the message most effectively by stimulating the countries, the
> languages where we have an emerging presence. Taipei was brilliant  
> because
> it not only gave us a lot of publicity in Asia, it was also  
> instrumental in
> building a chapter for Taiwan.
>
> This is exactly what the Alexandria conference is likely to do in  
> Egypt. It
> is likely to stimulate the ar.wikipedia enormously.
>
> By going to countries like Egypt we will meet other cultures other  
> points of
> view. When you are not willing to reach out, when the only thing you  
> can
> consider is the comfort of easy locations like Frankfurt, Boston our  
> POV
> will not be tested against the opinions, the attitudes of other  
> cultures and
> we will not be the challenging innovative organisation that we have  
> been so
> far. There is a risk that other cultures will change us, challenge  
> us but
> that is exactly what we have always taken pride in.
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>
> On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 3:37 PM, Dan Rosenthal <swatjester at gmail.com>  
> wrote:
>
>> If you and I disagree on what is obvious, and other people on this
>> list do as well, you can hardly make generalizations about Alexandria
>> as being a "brilliant" location, that extend anywhere beyond your own
>> opinion. Alexandria was not a "brilliant" choice, in fact many people
>> believe it was a very poor choice. Notice I'm not saying "it is a  
>> poor
>> choice". The difference is in being able to differentiate one's
>> subjective opinion from the objective facts, something I think you
>> find it very difficult to do when you make statements like "It is for
>> this reason that places like Taipei and Alexandria are brilliant."
>> That is your subjective opinion that Alexandria is a "brilliant"
>> location. Others think that it is a very poor location. It's
>> "brilliance", if any, extends only to your own opinion. "So when you
>> think the risk is too big, you do not go." Again, this is your own
>> opinion. Others think different actions are appropriate to take when
>> they see a risk. Your opinion only extends in this case to your own
>> behavior, not anyone else's.
>>
>> -Dan
>> On Mar 7, 2008, at 9:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>
>>> Hoi,
>>> We disagree on what is obvious. For me it is obvious that we need to
>>> spread
>>> the message of our projects and about our way as wide as possible.
>>> This
>>> means that we should go where we are weak but are building a
>>> presence. Going
>>> to the places that you where we are already doing well is missing
>>> important
>>> opportunities. It is for this reason that places like Taipei and
>>> Alexandria
>>> are brilliant.
>>> Thanks,
>>>    GerardM
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 3:13 PM, Dan Rosenthal <swatjester at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 7, 2008, at 4:49 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Considering that the
>>>>> number of articles is slowly becoming more balanced and  
>>>>> considering
>>>>> that
>>>>> even the English Wikipedia has contributors all over the world,
>>>>> there is no
>>>>> such thing as an "obvious" location to choose from.
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>  GerardM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Being that there is no "obvious location", Gerard, then there is no
>>>> reason to pick a location that has significant drawbacks. There are
>>>> many European, North American, even Asian locations that are
>>>> accessible to the vast majority of the world, in some cases  
>>>> probably
>>>> less expensively than Alexandria, (since places that are major
>>>> international airport hubs usually have the cheapest airfares, and
>>>> generally do not require a connecting flight ticket), that are more
>>>> free and open societies, without as intense worries about  
>>>> censorship,
>>>> terrorism, or implicitly supporting human rights violations.  
>>>> Toronto,
>>>> DC, New York, Berlin, Paris, London, Tokyo, Seoul, San Francisco,
>>>> Moscow, Vienna, Prague, etc.  If there is no "obvious location" to
>>>> choose from, why not any of these places that are safer, do not
>>>> require out attendees to pretend they are not gay or jewish, do not
>>>> discriminate against women, etc.
>>>>
>>>> -Dan
>>>>
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