[Foundation-l] Censorship: Speedy deletion of porn articles

[GerardM]

Hoi,
It is fine to have an article on porn. It is not reasonable to insist on
documenting individual porn stars. If your whole argument can be reduced to
your indignation that an article translated by you was deleted without much
discussion, then I do think this is not the place to discuss it either,
discuss it on the he.wikipedia.

If Danny wants to spend time on it in his free time, he can do so. I fail to
see why this should merit the attention of the Wikimedia Foundation. As I
indicated there are many more relevant things that need to be addressed.

Thanks,
    GerardM



On 3/9/07, Yonatan Horan <yonatanh at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 3/9/07, GerardM <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > There is no reason at all why all subjects that are permitted on the
> > English
> > Wikipedia should be permitted on another project. The notions of the
> > English
> > Wikipedia are not universal. Individual Pokemon articles et al are
> denied
> > on
> > the German Wikipedia and when individual people and or movies notable in
> > the
> > porn industry are not permitted on a particular project, I have no
> problem
> > with it at all.
>
>
> I never said that every other Wikipedia needs to go by the same standards
> as
> the English Wikipedia just that you can't censor a certain topic just
> because you don't like it, especially when there's nowhere near community
> consensus on the issue.
>
> There are much more important issues to do with censorship on Wikipedia
> > projects. On some projects articles on the holocaust are severely
> censored
> > because "it is not an accepted fact that it happened the way you have it
> > portrayed". This means that articles, even featured articles of the
> > English
> > Wikipedia associated with the second world war, cannot be literally
> > translated into these particular language versions of Wikipedia.
>
>
> Then that's an even bigger problem that should be dealt with as well.
>
> In many cultures the porn industry is not noted nor is porn permitted.
> > Insistence on having it included in Wikipedia is against the laws and
> > morals
> > of such countries. I stand by my position that a comparison with the
> > Pokemon
> > characters is valid; a Wikipedia article does not have to allow the
> > inclusion of all of them.
>
>
> Luckily for us, we have someone who is well aware of Israeli and Hebrew
> culture and who knows that in this aspect (to be specific, me). Israeli
> society is very similar to American or European society in that there are
> the conservatives, but they are not the majority (and of course there are
> no
> "porn laws"). Your argument might be valid for the Arabic Wikipedia (since
> in that case, a ban may reflect Arabic society and morals), however a
> country that has the playboy channel, et cetera, is obviously not the
> country that you imagine. You seem to have a strong misconception of the
> Hebrew culture.
>
> The porn industry *is* notable in Israeli\Hebrew culture. Again, even the
> ones arguing against the inclusion of pornographic articles in the Hebrew
> Wikipedia ARE NOT saying that it isn't notable. I didn't say the Hebrew
> Wikipedia needs to allow writing about Angel Cutexxx (fictional name) or
> any
> other esoteric actor/actress just that articles on subjects that are
> clearly
> notable cannot be speedy deleted. I'd have much less of a problem if
> someone
> nominated the article for deletion as non-notable but this is not what is
> happening, an article about a subject that has something to do with porn
> is
> deleted... for no reason other than the fact that it has something to do
> with porn (and nobody is claiming otherwise, or using non-notability as an
> excuse).
>
> Fine, you don't trust my judgment as obviously I have a POV here but
> someone
> like Danny (and I know who Danny is and how busy he is) is someone who can
> judge the situation in a better way since he is familiar with the culture,
> speaks the language and is a trusted person.
>
> PS I am not outraged, I think your premise is wrong.
>
>
> If you look over your initial response, you may see why I perceived it
> that
> way.
>
> Thanks,
> >     GerardM
> >
> > On 3/8/07, Yonatan Horan <yonatanh at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I strongly resent your reply. It seems like you have some similar
> issues
> > > with Pokemon articles and that's the reason you lashed out the way you
> > > did.
> > > The reason I raised this issue on this mailing list is not because of
> > some
> > > misplaced sense of outrage. The incident I was talking about took
> place
> > > two
> > > months ago and the only reason I mentioned it was to fully disclose
> any
> > > relevant information so other people don't come on here later on and
> say
> > > that the only reason I'm bringing this issue to the attention of
> others
> > is
> > > due to a vendetta against the Hebrew Wikipedia or something of the
> sort.
> > > This isn't about me trying to provoke anything. It's about a certain
> > group
> > > of admins ignoring the fact that speedy deletion of porn articles was
> > > never
> > > passed as a policy on hewp (and there is more than one sysop who can
> > > attest
> > > to this). As I said previously, I don't have any particular interest
> in
> > > porn
> > > and the fact that I've never edited an article that has anything to do
> > > with
> > > this topic on the english wikipedia supports that. Ron Jeremy and
> Jenna
> > > Jameson are both notable enough to have their own article on any
> > > wikipedia,
> > > whether it be English, Hebrew or Malaysian. Attempts have been made to
> > > resolve this issue "in-house" have failed, otherwise I wouldn't have
> > > posted
> > > it to this mailing list. I can't find the specific meta page at the
> > moment
> > > but it isn't English Wikipedia only policy that wikipedia isn't
> > censored.
> > > If
> > > the german wikipedia decided to delete all articles regarding Nazi
> > > Germany,
> > > etc. would you have reacted the same way? Or maybe if the Chinese
> > > Wikipedia
> > > decided to ban all articles on the issue of democracy? I hope you
> > rethink
> > > your response and maybe try not to treat me as a troll when I really
> am
> > > not
> > > one.
> > >
> > > -Yonatan
> > >
> > > On 3/8/07, GerardM <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hoi,
> > > > When you think that people are interested in what can be perceived
> as
> > a
> > > > provocation, you are wrong. What makes you think that details about
> > porn
> > > > is
> > > > of sufficient relevance to warrant an article? You have to
> appreciate
> > > that
> > > > some Wikipedias are quite happy to even disallow articles about
> > Pokomon
> > > > characters. Now Pokomon creatures are much more educational. They
> are
> > > the
> > > > staple diet of our youth.
> > > >
> > > > Danny is a WMF employee, I believe he has more important things to
> do
> > > than
> > > > to indulge your misplaced sense of outrage.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >    GerardM
> > > >
> > > > On 3/8/07, Yonatan Horan <yonatanh at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > It has recently (about two months ago) come to my attention that
> > > > articles
> > > > > on
> > > > > the Hebrew Wikipedia are speedy deleted. I translated the Jenna
> > > Jameson
> > > > > article from the English Wikipedia and it was very quickly speedy
> > > > deleted
> > > > > and I was indefinitely blocked due to being a sockpuppet of some
> guy
> > > (of
> > > > > course no checkuser request was done). By the way, I don't
> > > particularly
> > > > > like
> > > > > porn articles or anything of the sort; in fact, I don't believe
> I've
> > > > ever
> > > > > edited a porn article on the enwp which I'm very active on. After
> a
> > > few
> > > > > days
> > > > > (during which I complained on Danny's enwp talk page and thus got
> > the
> > > > > attention of a Hebrew Wikipedia admin and later spoke on the phone
> > > with
> > > > > another admin from hewp) I was unblocked. I'm guessing there have
> > > > probably
> > > > > been other people who just gave up after they were banned and
> didn't
> > > > > return.
> > > > >
> > > > > The situation is basically that if a user who isn't well-known on
> > the
> > > > hewp
> > > > > (someone outside of a group of about 100 users) creates such an
> > > article
> > > > he
> > > > > will probably be perm-banned and if anyone else does so, the
> article
> > > > will
> > > > > probably just be speedy deleted. No rule has been passed on the
> > Hebrew
> > > > > Wikipedia regarding this and even if it had been passed, it would
> be
> > > in
> > > > > violation of WMF (?) guidelines as Wikipedia is not censored. Some
> > > claim
> > > > > that a rule has been passed but many admins disagree with this.
> The
> > > > "vote"
> > > > > was passed about two years ago and had 10-20 participants. In
> > addition
> > > > to
> > > > > this, the vote came at a time when the Hebrew Wikipedia was
> > repeatedly
> > > > > vandalized by a certain user and many of the voters supposedly for
> > the
> > > > > banning of porn articles referred only to this specific case (this
> > is
> > > > > supported by their comments on the page).
> > > > >
> > > > > By the way, just so nobody corrects me, on the Hebrew Wikipedia
> > *there
> > > > are
> > > > > votes* since consensus is hardly ever reached and the total needed
> > to
> > > > pass
> > > > > a
> > > > > vote is a ridiculous 55%. Anyway, despite all the above, a few
> > admins
> > > > have
> > > > > said that they will speedy delete any porn articles created on the
> > > > Hebrew
> > > > > Wikipedia. Currently there are a few porn articles which are about
> > the
> > > > > movie
> > > > > Deep Throat and two other articles that I don't recall at the
> > moment.
> > > > This
> > > > > is a foundation issue because the situation right now is
> effectively
> > > > > censorship of articles that some people feel do not have a place
> on
> > > the
> > > > > wikipedia. I know I will probably have those who disagree with me
> be
> > > > > notified of this discussion at some point at which point the
> > > slandering
> > > > > will
> > > > > begin and I will be called a "snitch" and possibly other more
> > colorful
> > > > > terms
> > > > > so I ask ahead of time for this discussion to remain civil.
> Although
> > I
> > > > > hate
> > > > > to burden Danny, who probably has a lot of more important things
> to
> > > do,
> > > > he
> > > > > is the only one who speaks both Hebrew and English and could take
> > care
> > > > of
> > > > > this issue since he is obviously a person trusted by most. Anyway
> I
> > > > think
> > > > > I've written more than enough on an issue that should be pretty
> > > > > straightforward, that is, that wikipedia is not censored.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Yonatan
> > > > > _______________________________________________
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