[Foundation-l] a new free image!

Mon Feb 26 11:53:06 UTC 2007

I will probably respond to the rest later, as your statement about NC and ND
raises som questions. As you have understood, I oppose the intended draft if
it allows fair use but disapproves other notions.

But for the moment I'd like to say that I agree 100% with your remark about
referring to the mention of museums ion the metadata.

As you may or may not know, my main pix are in the area of biology, and I
got permission of two academic botanical gardens and a nursery to photograph
their collections on the condition that I mention their location on upload.
A condition I gladly fullfill, as I am grateful for the chance they offer
me.

On 2/26/07, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hoi,
> You read the draft incorrectly; NC and ND are on its own not permitted
> in an EDP. This has been explicitly confirmed by Kat Walsh. So be clear
> about it; only the argument "Fair use" allows something with a NC or ND
> license to be kept in our projects. This is not negotionable.
>
> I am not a fan of Fair use, I am not a fan of the overly restrictive
> ways that we are embarking on either. There is no way in which we can
> have a logo of a company without creating a legalistic mess where the
> license says that you can change it and the trademark says that you
> cannot is horrible to me. The fact that we do not acknowledge museums
> for looking after our cultural heritage by referring to them in the Meta
> data, the fact that we do not do this because it is Public Domain, is
> another missed opportunity to do the right thing.
>
> The notion that with this doctrine we have established how we have to
> deal with digital material once and for all is a notion that I do not
> subscribe to.
>
> You want to remind me on how this thread started; in the Dutch community
> we are working on getting much more pictures of those famous in the
> Netherlands by making it a project. This one picture of a former
> basketball player is imho an isolated incident. When people have the
> time and the inclination, this is something that can be done elsewhere
> as well. I want to remind you in turn that I responded to a remark made
> in this thread. This is what you do in threads.
>
> When you wonder how much effort was put in getting Free material.. we
> can use more people in the (Dutch) committee for free material ..
>
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
>
>
> teun spaans schreef:
> > Gerard,
> >
> > May I kindly remind you how this thread started.
> >
> > This thread started with a beautiful story of how the lack of a photo
> > prompted a professional photographer to donate photos. Personally I
> think
> > this would never happened if there had been an image under the fair use
> > provision. The lack of a picture makes people run, if there is a picture
> no
> > one gets out of his chair to say: He, there is a match tonight, I'm
> gonna
> > take some pix.
> >
> > I know many fair use advocates think the opposite. On this list I read
> "the
> > availability of a fair use image won't stop
> > someone from adding a free alternative" and "We should also recall that
> the
> > readers, would like to see an image until there "
> >
> > When we spoke with each other in the past you never supported the usage
> of
> > "fair use". Somehow your statements on this list, when I read them, even
> > where they seem to say the opposite, seem to suggest that you have
> changed
> > your point of view.
> > For example, when Muhammed suggests "the availability of a fair use
> image
> > won't stop someone from adding a free alternative", I think: he's right
> it
> > is not forbidden to add a free picture. But no longer any one will stand
> up
> > and say: it is a shame that we dont have a photo, There is a mact /
> concert
> > / interview tonight, I am going there and snap some pix! So effectually,
> > having a fair use image does hurt the collecting of free content. Then
> you
> > come and suggest that there is no need to cripple images for fair use
> (an
> > doubtful statement, see below). Even when you add "If anything we should
> not
> > have "Fair use" material.", your previous statement seems to support
> > Muhammeds plead for fair use.
> >
> > You suggest that it is not necessary to crop high quality images for
> fair
> > use. The assumption that cropping images improves legal chances for fair
> use
> > application is however very widespread. It also was one of the factors
> in
> > Kelly v. Arriba-Soft, 03 C.D.O.S. 5888 (9th Cir. 2003).
> >
> > The defenders of fair use should realize that we talk about a rather
> vast
> > amount of images.
> > Some numbers:
> > Template:albumcovers:     >55.000
> > Template:film-screenshot: >15.000
> > Template:Tv-screenshot:  > 30.000
> > Now these images will be hard to replace, but I really wonder how many
> > attempts have been made to make them free.
> > Others, such as those of famous people, and many of the 15.000 pics in
> > "template:fair use in" fall in this category, could potentially be
> replaced
> > by free pictures is someone simply steps out of his chair and starts
> taking
> > pictures.
> >
> > Gerad, I think you did not understand what I wrote about NC and ND. The
> > current draft as I read it, places little restrictions on exemptions.
> This
> > may lead to all kinds of unintended exemptions.
> >
> > I know that in your heart, Gerard, you support the creation of free
> content.
> >
> >
> > I wish you health and happiness,
> > teun spaans
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2/24/07, GerardM < gerard.meijssen at gmail.com > wrote:
> >
> >> Teun.
> >> May I kindly remind you that we are discussing on this list how to deal
> >> with
> >> all types of issues. Personally I have never ever uploaded "Fair use"
> >> material. It is however done on some of our projects. When material is
> >> used
> >> with a justification of being "Fair use", there is imho no reason to
> >> cripple
> >> such material. This was suggested in the previous post.
> >>
> >> You were wrong in how you reacted to what I wrote about NC and ND the
> >> other
> >> day, you again assume things that are not in line with what I wrote. It
> is
> >>
> >> good to remember that "Fair use" is permitted to a project under a
> >> Exemption
> >> Doctrine Policy if they so choose. It is therefore relevant to discuss
> how
> >> this is to be implemented if at all. This is what I did.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>      GerardM
> >>
> >>
> >> On 2/24/07, teun spaans <teun.spaans at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Gerard,
> >>>
> >>> may I kindly remind you that our aim is to make and collect free
> >>>
> >> content?
> >>
> >>> Fair use is not free.
> >>>
> >>> And your remark about crippling content looks false: i checked a few
> of
> >>> the
> >>> old versions, and these didnt have a photograph. Not even a fair use
> >>>
> >> one.
> >>
> >>> regards,
> >>> teun spaans
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 2/24/07, GerardM <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hoi,
> >>>> When you have a good quality picture that you want to use under Fair
> >>>>
> >>> use,
> >>>
> >>>> you use it as a good quality picture. Why cripple our content when
> >>>>
> >> there
> >>
> >>>> is
> >>>> no need ? If anything we should not have "Fair use" material.
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>>      GerardM
> >>>>
> >>>> On 2/24/07, Mohamed Magdy <mohamed.m.k at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> <snip>
> >>>>> Well, good work!..but as others said, this isn't the proper way to
> >>>>>
> >> get
> >>
> >>>>> rid of fair use images..the availability of a fair use image won't
> >>>>>
> >>> stop
> >>>
> >>>>> someone from adding a free alternative, fair use images shouldn't be
> >>>>> added in a high resolution..right? so when someone sees the image
> >>>>>
> >> with
> >>
> >>>>> low quality and s/he has another free one, s/he will replace it with
> >>>>>
> >>> the
> >>>
> >>>>> free image, provided that you place a message on free use images
> >>>>>
> >>> saying
> >>>
> >>>>> 'this image isn't free, if you can help.replace it...'...on the
> >>>>>
> >> other
> >>
> >>>>> end, I think with the increasing popularity, people will just add
> >>>>>
> >>> their
> >>>
> >>>>> images(to say: hey, i took that image you see on [[Cat]]
> >>>>>
> >> article!)...
>
>
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