[Foundation-l] a new free image!

Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijssen at gmail.com
Mon Feb 26 11:37:58 UTC 2007

You read the draft incorrectly; NC and ND are on its own not permitted 
in an EDP. This has been explicitly confirmed by Kat Walsh. So be clear 
about it; only the argument "Fair use" allows something with a NC or ND 
license to be kept in our projects. This is not negotionable.

I am not a fan of Fair use, I am not a fan of the overly restrictive 
ways that we are embarking on either. There is no way in which we can 
have a logo of a company without creating a legalistic mess where the 
license says that you can change it and the trademark says that you 
cannot is horrible to me. The fact that we do not acknowledge museums 
for looking after our cultural heritage by referring to them in the Meta 
data, the fact that we do not do this because it is Public Domain, is 
another missed opportunity to do the right thing.

The notion that with this doctrine we have established how we have to 
deal with digital material once and for all is a notion that I do not 
subscribe to.

You want to remind me on how this thread started; in the Dutch community 
we are working on getting much more pictures of those famous in the 
Netherlands by making it a project. This one picture of a former 
basketball player is imho an isolated incident. When people have the 
time and the inclination, this is something that can be done elsewhere 
as well. I want to remind you in turn that I responded to a remark made 
in this thread. This is what you do in threads.

When you wonder how much effort was put in getting Free material.. we 
can use more people in the (Dutch) committee for free material ..


teun spaans schreef:
> Gerard,
> May I kindly remind you how this thread started.
> This thread started with a beautiful story of how the lack of a photo
> prompted a professional photographer to donate photos. Personally I think
> this would never happened if there had been an image under the fair use
> provision. The lack of a picture makes people run, if there is a picture no
> one gets out of his chair to say: He, there is a match tonight, I'm gonna
> take some pix.
> I know many fair use advocates think the opposite. On this list I read "the
> availability of a fair use image won't stop
> someone from adding a free alternative" and "We should also recall that the
> readers, would like to see an image until there "
> When we spoke with each other in the past you never supported the usage of
> "fair use". Somehow your statements on this list, when I read them, even
> where they seem to say the opposite, seem to suggest that you have changed
> your point of view.
> For example, when Muhammed suggests "the availability of a fair use image
> won't stop someone from adding a free alternative", I think: he's right it
> is not forbidden to add a free picture. But no longer any one will stand up
> and say: it is a shame that we dont have a photo, There is a mact / concert
> / interview tonight, I am going there and snap some pix! So effectually,
> having a fair use image does hurt the collecting of free content. Then you
> come and suggest that there is no need to cripple images for fair use (an
> doubtful statement, see below). Even when you add "If anything we should not
> have "Fair use" material.", your previous statement seems to support
> Muhammeds plead for fair use.
> You suggest that it is not necessary to crop high quality images for fair
> use. The assumption that cropping images improves legal chances for fair use
> application is however very widespread. It also was one of the factors in
> Kelly v. Arriba-Soft, 03 C.D.O.S. 5888 (9th Cir. 2003).
> The defenders of fair use should realize that we talk about a rather vast
> amount of images.
> Some numbers:
> Template:albumcovers:     >55.000
> Template:film-screenshot: >15.000
> Template:Tv-screenshot:  > 30.000
> Now these images will be hard to replace, but I really wonder how many
> attempts have been made to make them free.
> Others, such as those of famous people, and many of the 15.000 pics in
> "template:fair use in" fall in this category, could potentially be replaced
> by free pictures is someone simply steps out of his chair and starts taking
> pictures.
> Gerad, I think you did not understand what I wrote about NC and ND. The
> current draft as I read it, places little restrictions on exemptions. This
> may lead to all kinds of unintended exemptions.
> I know that in your heart, Gerard, you support the creation of free content.
> I wish you health and happiness,
> teun spaans
> On 2/24/07, GerardM < gerard.meijssen at gmail.com > wrote:
>> Teun.
>> May I kindly remind you that we are discussing on this list how to deal
>> with
>> all types of issues. Personally I have never ever uploaded "Fair use"
>> material. It is however done on some of our projects. When material is
>> used
>> with a justification of being "Fair use", there is imho no reason to
>> cripple
>> such material. This was suggested in the previous post.
>> You were wrong in how you reacted to what I wrote about NC and ND the
>> other
>> day, you again assume things that are not in line with what I wrote. It is
>> good to remember that "Fair use" is permitted to a project under a
>> Exemption
>> Doctrine Policy if they so choose. It is therefore relevant to discuss how
>> this is to be implemented if at all. This is what I did.
>> Thanks,
>>      GerardM
>> On 2/24/07, teun spaans <teun.spaans at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Gerard,
>>> may I kindly remind you that our aim is to make and collect free
>> content?
>>> Fair use is not free.
>>> And your remark about crippling content looks false: i checked a few of
>>> the
>>> old versions, and these didnt have a photograph. Not even a fair use
>> one.
>>> regards,
>>> teun spaans
>>> On 2/24/07, GerardM <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com > wrote:
>>>> Hoi,
>>>> When you have a good quality picture that you want to use under Fair
>>> use,
>>>> you use it as a good quality picture. Why cripple our content when
>> there
>>>> is
>>>> no need ? If anything we should not have "Fair use" material.
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>      GerardM
>>>> On 2/24/07, Mohamed Magdy <mohamed.m.k at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>> Well, good work!..but as others said, this isn't the proper way to
>> get
>>>>> rid of fair use images..the availability of a fair use image won't
>>> stop
>>>>> someone from adding a free alternative, fair use images shouldn't be
>>>>> added in a high resolution..right? so when someone sees the image
>> with
>>>>> low quality and s/he has another free one, s/he will replace it with
>>> the
>>>>> free image, provided that you place a message on free use images
>>> saying
>>>>> 'this image isn't free, if you can help.replace it...'...on the
>> other
>>>>> end, I think with the increasing popularity, people will just add
>>> their
>>>>> images(to say: hey, i took that image you see on [[Cat]]
>> article!)...

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