Hi everyone, I was unsure whether or not to reply to this thread, but maybe something honestly has to be said.

Criticism is welcome when constructive, said in a civilized manner, without going personal and without the intention of belittling, and intended to improve our content. Not when done selectively on projects (or people) that deal with the gender gap. And this is the main problem we have on this front, that despite the magnificent work done, such projects are still viewed with prejudice: as non-neutral, done more for personal or group/activism interest than for the wikimedian one, who neglect quality over quantity. 

And this is the meaning of the letter of support to LSP on Meta. In addition to the fact that in all discussions I have read - even we have hundred of examples in our movement - there is a great confusion on what means a non-profit wiki association born to support a project, what means community (still talking about who is to be considered part of the community and who not), between the advocacy work and the paid editing, proving not to be able to distinguish, and not even to be aware of what are the validated (and long term) Wikimedian practices: professional staff inside the affiliates (paid to do financial or administrative work, event organization or communication), Wikimedian in residence, to give just a few examples. It seems that we can only see and conceive of the work done by the chapters, a little less that of the other affiliates like user groups, especially when they act not on a territorial, but on a thematic level.

My 2 cents,
Camelia


--
Camelia Boban (she/her)
| Java EE Developer |

M. +39 3383385545
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WikiDonne Chair & Co-founder | Wikimedia Diversity Ambassador
Wikipedia | WikiDonne Project | WikiDonne UG | WikiDonne APS
WMIT - WMSE - WMAR - WMCH - WMNY - WMDC - WMBE Member


On Fri, Sep 23, 2022 at 11:11 AM Vi to <vituzzu.wiki@gmail.com> wrote:
Criticism and harassment must be told apart. I feel like LSP letter in French does, while supporting letter on meta doesn't.

In collaborative projects driven by volunteers criticism should never be downplayed, even when actively contrasting its specific instances.

Paid editing, neutrality, inclusion criteria are matters of substance which are primarly up to Francophone community and are subject to different opinions, while harassment is not susceptible of opinion but rather of being stopped and sanctioned through the proper means.

Vito

Il giorno gio 22 set 2022 alle ore 17:31 Lane Chance <zinkloss@gmail.com> ha scritto:
A detailed response by LSP to questions raised on the French
Wikipedia, and a summary of the context of being subject to an
unpleasant pile on, and direct personal attacks on the team, was
published yesterday at:
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projet:Les_sans_pagEs/Réponses_aux_questions_posées_à_l'association_LSP

If you can't read French, Google translate does a perfectly adequate
job to do the necessary reading everyone is expected to do as a *basic
courtesy*, before publishing opinions.

Lane
On Tue, 20 Sept 2022 at 07:34, Todd Allen <toddmallen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> It is hard to determine what is being complained about, when the letter does not actually link to any of the threads it complains about. If it did that, it would be much more easily possible for someone to look into the substance of it. It states that it has been linked to "continual bad-faith arguments" (itself concerning; that's not a neutral summary) of discussions "on the project’s talk page, on the administrators’ bulletin and on Le Bistro and a formal RFC — including calls for the disestablishment of the project on the basis of concerns around Conflicts of interest and Paid editing."
>
> Where are the links to those discussions? Where can I see what concerns were raised? If there is paid editing going on, that's a substantial concern, as is COI. If the arguments are in bad faith, well, that should be readily apparent, too. But where are the links?
>
> Todd
>
> On Mon, Sep 19, 2022 at 5:17 AM Lane Chance <zinkloss@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Responding to LGBTQ minority communities raising legitimate, evidence
>> based, concerns of systemic bias with "stay in your lane"?
>>
>> I don't think I've read anything more tone deaf.
>>
>> The give away is "Without having looked into the actual substance". Do
>> the research before rushing to punch down the voice of minority
>> groups.
>>
>> Lane
>>
>> On Mon, 19 Sept 2022 at 01:25, Yair Rand <yyairrand@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Without having looked into the actual substance of whatever dispute is going on among frwiki and LSP, I want to put forward some good general principles:
>> > * The individual hiring and firing decisions of our organizations should be under the exclusive jurisdiction of the entities assigned those responsibilities. Public community pressure should not be able to get someone fired or hired, or prevent any particular hiring or firing decision. A public protest against someone's hiring is unproductive and damages the collaborative environment.
>> > * Responding to a community's attitude by sending out a monodirectional communication, organized off-wiki and listing supporters' affiliate positions, is basically the most conflict-oriented way possible to approach this.
>> >
>> > How an affiliate manages their individual hires is the affiliate's business. HR activities are complicated, and do not need to be handled in the public sphere. If an affiliate wants to hire whoever, the community doesn't get to veto it.
>> >
>> > How a community reacts to an affiliate's actions is their own business. Affiliates do not get a say in local community affairs. A usergroup's or chapter's collective opinion is completely irrelevant in a community dialogue. If the community wants to ban someone, or even the entire membership of a group, they can do that, and affiliates don't get to veto it.
>> >
>> > (Seriously: It doesn't matter if you're the WMF's Board Chair, the CEO, or whatever, you don't get an extra vote in an RfC.)
>> >
>> > (It should go without saying that hostile/uncivil behaviour, harassment, and accusations of bad faith are not acceptable.)
>> >
>> > Everyone, please stay in your lane. This is like the only place on Wikimedia where we clearly even _have_ obvious distinct lanes, it should be manageable.
>> >
>> > -- Yair Rand
>> >
>> >
>> > ‫בתאריך יום ו׳, 16 בספט׳ 2022 ב-4:30 מאת ‪WM LGBT‬‏ <‪wikimedialgbt@gmail.com‬‏>:‬
>> >>
>> >> Link: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Open_letter_of_support_for_Les_sans_pagEs
>> >>
>> >> Over 35 Wikimedia organisations and many individual Wikimedians have
>> >> signed in support of the initiative of our Wikimedia Affiliate Les
>> >> sans pagEs professionalising their work by hiring Nattes à chat as
>> >> executive director to continue their longstanding work addressing
>> >> systemic bias on Wikipedia and our sister projects and groups.
>> >>
>> >> Les sans pagEs should be free and supported to create a better
>> >> quality, more complete French-language encyclopedia, representative of
>> >> different perspectives and lived experiences, instead of having to
>> >> defend their work against baseless accusations of malpractice.
>> >>
>> >> Please ask on the meta discussion page if you would like to add your
>> >> Wikimedia organisation or name in support.
>> >>
>> >> On behalf of
>> >> Wikimedia LGBT+ User Group
>> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_LGBT
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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