We were doing so well there for a minute and then it got into wars! I agree with Carol about needing to move on to a new topic. Laura, I think your emails are getting out of line with the purpose of the group.
Let's get back to producing ideas and methods, no?
Carissa
On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 6:14 PM,
<gendergap-request@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: FW: Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for women and
transgender, sublist for male supporters (Ryan Kaldari)
2. Re: The problem is aggression.... was ... Proposal: Forking
gendergap: (carolmooredc@verizon.net)
3. Re: The problem is aggression.... was ... Proposal: Forking
gendergap: (SlimVirgin)
4. Re: Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for women and
transgender, sublist for male supporters (Erik Moeller)
5. Re: Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for women and
transgender, sublist for male supporters (Fred Bauder)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:49:00 -0700
From: Ryan Kaldari <rkaldari@wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] FW: Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list
for women and transgender, sublist for male supporters
To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
Message-ID: <4D814C6C.8020602@wikimedia.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Marc, I don't think you're improving the "communication problem" you
describe by telling people their ideas are "nonsense", "self-serving",
or "insulting". Yes, Laura's ideas are challenging, but getting overly
defensive doesn't help the discussion.
Kaldari
On 3/16/11 1:58 PM, Marc Riddell wrote:
>
> ----------
> *From: *Marc Riddell <michaeldavid86@comcast.net>
> *Date: *Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:49:32 -0400
> *To: *Laura Hale <laura@fanhistory.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [Gendergap] Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for
> women and transgender, sublist for male supporters
>
> Laura, your interpretation of my words is strikingly self-serving, and
> your solutions would serve to widen whatever gap exists in the
> Project. This entire "problem" is not one of gender, but of individual
> persons having problems communicating with a particular group of other
> persons. My question to all of those who state that they have a
> problem communicating with, or feel intimidated by, a male in the
> venue of a mailing list such as this, is do you have the same problem
> in person? There are many, many strong, intelligent voices in the
> Wikipedia Project who also happen to be female. And to include them in
> this "gendergap", and suggest that this is strictly a gender issue, is
> an insult to them.
>
> Marc
>
> on 3/16/11 4:06 PM, Laura Hale at laura@fanhistory.com wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 11:42 PM, Marc Riddell
> <michaeldavid86@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> This is simply, nonsense!
>
>
> That is your opinion, and you're welcome to it. In my experience,
> there are two general groups of women:
>
> 1. One who welcome men as participants in events specifically
> targeting women, because the women feel the men can learn.
> 2. One who don't want men involved because they feel women should
> work towards their own self interests and that women behave
> differently around men.
>
> Don't you people realize that separating this List
> into two distinct ones would underline, reinforce and actually
> signify the
> very "gendergap" you are allegedly trying to resolve.
>
>
> This pretty much is why I think we need men off the list. While
> you're intending to or not, I'm reading this as "Don't you
> understand that the only way women can succeed it by having men
> involved! You need men!" If you're not intending to send the
> message: Women cannot succeed with out men!, then you may want to
> reconsider your wording.
>
> And I'd argue the opposite: Men have done an awful job at
> recruiting women to be involved with Wikipedia. The current
> problems exist because men have tried to "solve" this problem.
>
> This is people talking
> with people. If there is a female or male here who has a problem
> communicating with, or in the presence of, another gender -
> they do have a
> problem.
>
>
> Translation: "Women! You're the problem! If you could stop
> engaging in female modes of communication, we could fix this
> problem! "
>
> This list is NOT a general list for increasing the participation
> rates of people. If you want to have a list dedicated to
> generally increasing the participation rates of people on
> Wikipedia, then fork off and do that.
>
>
> But a website Mailing List such as this is not the place to
> resolve
> it.
>
>
> Am I supposed to interpret this as you claiming that this list has
> a mission that will never succeed because it acknowledges there
> are gender differences and different approaches are needed to get
> different audiences? As a woman, a representative of a minority
> group on Wikipedia, how am I supposed to respond to you? I can
> tell you that this post of yours makes me feel distinctly
> uncomfortable posting to this list. It seems to put men in the
> position of power above women, demanding that women participate
> only in male modes of communication, that women on the list can't
> talk about genuine concerns they have as women because they are
> going to get blown off, and that feelings of men on the list are
> more important then women.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Gendergap mailing list
> Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 19:52:14 -0400
From: carolmooredc@verizon.net
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] The problem is aggression.... was ...
Proposal: Forking gendergap:
To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects
<gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID: <4D814D2E.4060105@verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
I second. The problem is aggression and trying to impose one's agenda,
and whether you are male, female, M2F transgender or F2M transgender,
you can be aggressive and disruptive. (And I've been on a couple all
women lists over the years where M2F transgenders were very aggressive,
condescending and disruptive.) I don't see any agreement with Ms. Hale's
proposal and I think we need to drop it.
On 3/16/2011 7:01 PM, B?ria Lima wrote:
> I completely agree with Fluffy.
> _____
> /B?ria Lima/
> Wikimedia Portugal <http://wikimedia.pt>
> (351) 963 953 042
>
> /Imagine um mundo onde ? dada a qualquer pessoa a possibilidade de ter
> livre acesso ao somat?rio de todo o conhecimento humano. ? isso o que
> estamos a fazer./
>
>
> 2011/3/16 ChaoticFluffy <chaoticfluffy@gmail.com
> <mailto:chaoticfluffy@gmail.com>>
>
> I also don't have a problem with Erik's POV in particular. My
> views on this topic are basically that:
>
> 1) Yes, some of the men here are being excessively strident and
> dismissive in a lot of cases
> 2) Yes, I feel less inclined to speak my mind because I know that
> I'm going to have to defend every point I make from three or four
> men telling me how it's not a problem
> 3) No, I don't think the solution is to fork the list. We have to
> function with men onwiki, there's no reason to kick them off here
> 4) I'm not sure how moderation could be used effectively other
> than to have moderators speak to people who are overly dismissive.
> Having a moderator approve all posts seems excessive, but I would
> support, say, an X-strikes-you're-out policy regarding belittling
> or dismissive behavior
> 5) I don't think it's constructive to require the men to justify
> themselves to us or the list. If they're here, they're here
> because they want to work on the gender gap. That said...
> 6) I don't know how many more ways we women can tell you guys that
> some of you are coming across as obnoxious. I'm sorry if that
> offends you (mostly because I'm a woman and I've been trained to
> be sorry if I offend people, hey look how that works), but YOU
> ARE. Please accept that this is happening, it's making the women
> unhappy, and we'd like you to think before you speak from now on.
> 7) Please do NOT immediately protest that you feel like the mean
> feminist women are trying to oppress you by telling you all this.
> Feel like we're snap-judging your statements? Feel like we're
> treating you as your gender rather than yourself, and unfairly so?
> Feel like we're just not listening to the points you're trying to
> make? WELCOME TO OUR WORLD AS WOMEN.
>
> -Fluff
>
>
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Message: 3
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:59:05 -0600
From: SlimVirgin <slimvirgin@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] The problem is aggression.... was ...
Proposal: Forking gendergap:
To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects
<gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
<AANLkTikTAaRThHG2ceEfG9N4F4gZuCGQ8tpZ6NfEr0LG@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 17:52, <carolmooredc@verizon.net> wrote:
> I second. The problem is aggression and trying to impose one's agenda, and
> whether you are male, female, M2F transgender or F2M transgender, you can be
> aggressive and disruptive. (And I've been on a couple all women lists over
> the years where M2F transgenders were very aggressive, condescending and
> disruptive.) I don't see any agreement with Ms. Hale's proposal and I think
> we need to drop it.
>
It's true, though, that there are things I would post about Wikipedia
on a women-only list, if I could be 100 percent sure that's what it
was. And as if to prove that point, I just typed out an example, then
deleted it because I felt uncomfortable. :) So even if Laura's
proposal isn't being supported, I hope it gives food for thought. And
there's nothing to stop her from setting up such a list herself.
Sarah
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:59:01 -0700
From: Erik Moeller <erik@wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for
women and transgender, sublist for male supporters
To: Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects
<gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
<AANLkTimKiY-fEaH7NsXk9kKZAqHZhXru_x2sCxw59LdA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Laura,
I don't find the tone of your messages in this thread an acceptable
basis for constructive conversation. On that basis, I am going to
disengage from this thread.
Respectfully,
Erik
--
Erik M?ller
Deputy Director, Wikimedia Foundation
Support Free Knowledge: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 18:14:10 -0600 (MDT)
From: "Fred Bauder" <fredbaud@fairpoint.net>
Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Proposal: Forking gendergap: Main list for
women and transgender, sublist for male supporters
To: "Increasing female participation in Wikimedia projects"
<gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org>
Message-ID:
<43584.66.243.192.69.1300320850.squirrel@webmail.fairpoint.net>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> On 3/16/11 1:42 PM, Fred Bauder wrote:
>> I will continue to joke around a bit, but you're free to not be amused.
>
> Fred, I really don't think this response is appropriate. If people are
> complaining that your humor is exacerbating the problem rather helping
> the discussion, don't you think it would be sensible to exercise some
> discretion?
>
> Kaldari
I am exercising considerable discretion. I'm not going to walk on
eggshells though. Throwing a hissy fit over every word or phrase you
don't like is no good either. We deal with disruptive people and
disruptive language 24/7. In a way, that is what we do. I've seen
Mau-Mauing before, and I don't respect it; I may make fun of it.
The reference is literary, see
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Radical_Chic_%26_Mau-Mauing_the_Flak_Catchers#.22Mau-Mauing_the_Flak_Catchers.22
Fred
------------------------------
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