Dear Sirs,
I’ve an app for outdoor activities that is "map centered" to geolocate and refer users. Currently i’m using mapbox tiles, and i was wondering if it is allowed to make call to maps.wikimedia.org to access map tiles.
I'have the following constrains on the app regarding with map tile access:
I only access to current location;
I cache for 60 days the tiles in the user device.
If you allow me to call your tiles i’ll update my credits page with wikimedia (like OSM) or with the info you provided me. You can check here: https://www.udere.com/#credits
You can check my site/app here:
www.udere.com
App Store: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/udere/id1146547257?ls=1&mt=8
Google Play: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.udere.app&utm_source=g...
Thanks for your time,
Miguel
There was some related talk at https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T111224#2921743 .
Nemo
On 6 February 2017 at 11:25, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemowiki@gmail.com wrote:
There was some related talk at https://phabricator.wikimedia. org/T111224#2921743
Indeed. Thanks Nemo. There is also guidance for third-party use in Maps Terms of Use https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Maps_Terms_of_Use#Using_maps_in_third-party_services, which you may wish to review.
Dan
Are we even building our own tiles? I thought the 'Wikimedia maps' is just an interface to OSM.
Hi Svetlana,
While we do get data from OSM, we run our own tile server called Kartotherian https://github.com/kartotherian/kartotherian, mainly for the following reasons:
- OSM's infrastructure is fragile and has cache challenges - Their datacenter is in London, which means latency becomes an issue - OSM's rendering stack can't scale horizontally well enough to be sure they could handle our load - Their map style is not mobile friendly - We require multilingual and vector tiles, which their stack can't do (currently) - We wanted to provide nicer map styling in general
Hope that helps!
On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:06 PM, Svetlana Tkachenko <svetlana@members.fsf.org
wrote:
Are we even building our own tiles? I thought the 'Wikimedia maps' is just an interface to OSM.
discovery mailing list discovery@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/discovery
On 2/6/2017 1:16 PM, Erika Bjune wrote:
Hi Svetlana,
While we do get data from OSM, we run our own tile server called Kartotherian https://github.com/kartotherian/kartotherian, mainly for the following reasons:
- OSM's infrastructure is fragile and has cache challenges
- Their datacenter is in London, which means latency becomes an issue
- OSM's rendering stack can't scale horizontally well enough to be sure they could handle our load
- Their map style is not mobile friendly
- We require multilingual and vector tiles, which their stack can't do (currently)
- We wanted to provide nicer map styling in general
As a developer of both the WMF styles, OpenStreetMap Carto, and many map rendering components, I can provide some more detail. I'm not a server admin for either WMF or the OSMF, but I work closely with them.
The default "standard" map on OpenStreetMap.org is a style called OpenStreetMap Carto (osm-carto). The particular tiles being served on osm.org (tile.osm.org) are rendered on OpenStreetMap Foundation (OSMF) resources. Their usage is controlled by the tile usage policy https://operations.osmfoundation.org/policies/tiles/, which would prohibit their use as a default map on Wikipedia.
Aside from the policy reasons, tile.osm.org is not designed for Wikimedia's use, mainly because tile.osm.org is designed for providing mapper feedback, not efficient rendering.
- tile.osm.org is designed to show changes in OSM data minutes after they were made. The cost of this is that caching is much less efficient, and more resources have to be used for each map view. Wikimedia doesn't need minutely updates, and I think right now updates daily. Most commercial OSM hosts also update hourly, daily, or weekly. This decision shows up throughout how tile.osm.org is setup, sometimes in subtle ways
- tile.osm.org is not designed for multiple similar styles, e.g. high resolution "retina" tiles.
- tile.osm.org isn't designed to export static map images, which is an important WMF use case
- The tile.osm.org rendering stack doesn't provide some WMF-specific functionality needed, like integrations with Wikidata, etc.
- Parts of the tile.osm.org rendering stack are in maintenance mode and have no active developers. This is fine if they do what you need, but would have been a problem for WMF needs
For the record, I do think a deployment for WMF using the same software as tile.osm.org would have been possible and met the load requirements, but not have worked with static maps, multilingual maps, and some other WMF requirements
I feel OpenStreetMap Carto, the style on tile.osm.org, is a good style when you look at its goals https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/CARTOGRAPHY.md#main-goals. Two of the goals are showing the richness of OSM data and providing mapper feedback. It doesn't have the goal of being a map where you can layer additional data on top, which is a key WMF use-case. Two osm-carto policy decisions that would have been a problem for WMF use are the use of only OSM data whenever possible, and rendering everything in the language of the region. The first is a problem because it requires design decisions which sacrifice cartographic quality, performance, and complexity, particularly at low zooms.
Hi Erika,
Just wondering, has there been any uptake by OSM of WMF improvements or adaptations to OSM products and services? I'd like to encourage OSM-WMF collaboration wherever possible.
Pine
On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:16 PM, Erika Bjune ebjune@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hi Svetlana,
While we do get data from OSM, we run our own tile server called Kartotherian https://github.com/kartotherian/kartotherian, mainly for the following reasons:
- OSM's infrastructure is fragile and has cache challenges
- Their datacenter is in London, which means latency becomes an issue
- OSM's rendering stack can't scale horizontally well enough to be
sure they could handle our load
- Their map style is not mobile friendly
- We require multilingual and vector tiles, which their stack can't do
(currently)
- We wanted to provide nicer map styling in general
Hope that helps!
On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:06 PM, Svetlana Tkachenko < svetlana@members.fsf.org> wrote:
Are we even building our own tiles? I thought the 'Wikimedia maps' is just an interface to OSM.
discovery mailing list discovery@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/discovery
--
Erika Bjune Engineering Manager - Discovery Wikimedia Foundation
discovery mailing list discovery@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/discovery
Hello Pine,
Just wondering, has there been any uptake by OSM of WMF improvements or adaptations to OSM products and services? I'd like to encourage OSM-WMF collaboration wherever possible.
We are fortunate to have a developer on our maps team who is also a board member of and contributor to OSM, and what he has explained to me is that our two organizations have very different use cases for maps that each require different levels of infrastructure and development. In fact, you may have seen his great response earlier on this list about the differences between OSM and WMF map tile rendering needs.[0]
So, to some extent, we are already in collaboration, but for OSM to adopt the weight of WMF's needs is really up to them. We are very glad to be able to utilize the data their community curates, and perhaps over time we will move even closer together on the collaboration spectrum. Thanks for the suggestion, it certainly makes sense to consider it!
Best, Erika
[0] https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/discovery/2017-February/001437.html
On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 7:51 PM, Pine W wiki.pine@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Erika,
Just wondering, has there been any uptake by OSM of WMF improvements or adaptations to OSM products and services? I'd like to encourage OSM-WMF collaboration wherever possible.
Pine
On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:16 PM, Erika Bjune ebjune@wikimedia.org wrote:
Hi Svetlana,
While we do get data from OSM, we run our own tile server called Kartotherian https://github.com/kartotherian/kartotherian, mainly for the following reasons:
- OSM's infrastructure is fragile and has cache challenges
- Their datacenter is in London, which means latency becomes an issue
- OSM's rendering stack can't scale horizontally well enough to be
sure they could handle our load
- Their map style is not mobile friendly
- We require multilingual and vector tiles, which their stack can't
do (currently)
- We wanted to provide nicer map styling in general
Hope that helps!
On Mon, Feb 6, 2017 at 1:06 PM, Svetlana Tkachenko < svetlana@members.fsf.org> wrote:
Are we even building our own tiles? I thought the 'Wikimedia maps' is just an interface to OSM.
discovery mailing list discovery@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/discovery
--
Erika Bjune Engineering Manager - Discovery Wikimedia Foundation
discovery mailing list discovery@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/discovery
discovery mailing list discovery@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/discovery
On 2/6/2017 7:51 PM, Pine W wrote:
Hi Erika,
Just wondering, has there been any uptake by OSM of WMF improvements or adaptations to OSM products and services? I'd like to encourage OSM-WMF collaboration wherever possible.
What follows are my thoughts, not those of the Wikimedia Foundation or OpenStreetMap Foundation.
Yes and no. Four ways that collaboration can happen are with data, software, people, and other resources.
*Data*
The biggest impact on data has been WM linking to www.openstreetmap.org/fixthemap. I don't have any data on how effective it has been, and the effect has probably been swamped by the recent boost to OSM from Pokemon Go, but if someone sees improvements that can be made at directing people from WM to OSM to edit the map, a ticket would be useful.
A secondary impact on data has been some work on wikidata tags in OSM. This has been of mixed success, and the main user of wikidata tags is Wikimedia itself.
A possible improvement here would be to do some research if someone on a Wikimedia page who wants to edit the map makes it through to www.openstreetmap.org/fixthemap.
*Software*
There were hopes that Kartotherian would become the standard for generating and serving raster and vector tiles with node-mapnik. This hasn't happened and until the uncertainty over the interactive team is resolved, it probably won't. There are also technology reasons why I would prefer not to generate vector tiles in node-mapnik http://paulnorman.ca/blog/2016/11/serving-vector-tiles/.
With what I have been working on, there has been more success on writing and improving software of use to the broader OSM community. My work on OSMBorder https://github.com/pnorman/osmborder should see wider use, and I've fixed some osm2pgsql bugs.
An improvement would to build a community around Kartotherian. For this to happen there needs to be certainty over its future as well as architectural changes to make it easier for third parties to use it https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T148605.
*People*
The biggest impact here is that I am under a three month contract with WMF, and am also a developer on many OSM components. I am obviously in favour of this ;) Working on OSM-only stuff isn't part of my job description, but I try to improve existing software instead of starting new stuff from scratch, so I've gotten to do some OSM work.
An improvement would to get more people involved in OSM. Some companies have donated employee time, where an employee spends up to 20% of their time working on OSM stuff. This doesn't have to be software development, other fields like graphics design, communications, and others are also important.
*Other resources*
WMF or local groups have worked with the OSM community on some events.
It's hard to make specific recommendations for improvement, since this can encompass so many things. Some things companies have done include
- Donated old hardware
- Donated mirroring capacity for data downloads
- Donated rack space
Hi Paul,
Thanks for your email. This is reminding me of a discussion that happened a few years ago about WMF supporting other technology organizations and projects which see heavy use in the Wikimedia world. One of these is Freenode, and I believe that another is Phabricator. I don't know who in WMF is in charge of coordinating these kinds of partnerships - perhaps Victoria or Quim - but if you can identify that person then I would encourage you to have a conversation with them about putting OSM in the same group of projects that WMF supports as Freenode and Phabricator.
I have encouraged people at WMF to think about approaching Google and others to ask them for donations of engineering time. I am glad to hear that this practice already happens with OSM, and would encourage WMF to try to emulate OSM's successes in this area.
Thanks again,
Pine
On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 6:10 PM, Paul Norman penorman@mac.com wrote:
On 2/6/2017 7:51 PM, Pine W wrote:
Hi Erika,
Just wondering, has there been any uptake by OSM of WMF improvements or adaptations to OSM products and services? I'd like to encourage OSM-WMF collaboration wherever possible.
What follows are my thoughts, not those of the Wikimedia Foundation or OpenStreetMap Foundation.
Yes and no. Four ways that collaboration can happen are with data, software, people, and other resources.
*Data*
The biggest impact on data has been WM linking to www.openstreetmap.org/ fixthemap. I don't have any data on how effective it has been, and the effect has probably been swamped by the recent boost to OSM from Pokemon Go, but if someone sees improvements that can be made at directing people from WM to OSM to edit the map, a ticket would be useful.
A secondary impact on data has been some work on wikidata tags in OSM. This has been of mixed success, and the main user of wikidata tags is Wikimedia itself.
A possible improvement here would be to do some research if someone on a Wikimedia page who wants to edit the map makes it through to www.openstreetmap.org/fixthemap.
*Software*
There were hopes that Kartotherian would become the standard for generating and serving raster and vector tiles with node-mapnik. This hasn't happened and until the uncertainty over the interactive team is resolved, it probably won't. There are also technology reasons why I would prefer not to generate vector tiles in node-mapnik http://paulnorman.ca/blog/2016/11/serving-vector-tiles/.
With what I have been working on, there has been more success on writing and improving software of use to the broader OSM community. My work on OSMBorder https://github.com/pnorman/osmborder should see wider use, and I've fixed some osm2pgsql bugs.
An improvement would to build a community around Kartotherian. For this to happen there needs to be certainty over its future as well as architectural changes to make it easier for third parties to use it https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T148605.
*People*
The biggest impact here is that I am under a three month contract with WMF, and am also a developer on many OSM components. I am obviously in favour of this ;) Working on OSM-only stuff isn't part of my job description, but I try to improve existing software instead of starting new stuff from scratch, so I've gotten to do some OSM work.
An improvement would to get more people involved in OSM. Some companies have donated employee time, where an employee spends up to 20% of their time working on OSM stuff. This doesn't have to be software development, other fields like graphics design, communications, and others are also important.
*Other resources*
WMF or local groups have worked with the OSM community on some events.
It's hard to make specific recommendations for improvement, since this can encompass so many things. Some things companies have done include
Donated old hardware
Donated mirroring capacity for data downloads
Donated rack space
discovery mailing list discovery@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/discovery