Al.
On Thursday, 23 July 2020, <abstract-wikipedia-request@lists.wikimedia.org> wrote:

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: A few examples of functions (Denny Vrandečić)
2. Budget of Abstract Wikipedia? (Daniel Mietchen)
3. Re: Conjugation and Declension Functions (Adam Sobieski)
(Charles Matthews)
4. Re: Conjugation and Declension Functions (Adam Sobieski)
(Adam Sobieski)

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Message: 1
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 12:10:40 -0700
From: Denny Vrandečić <dvrandecic@wikimedia.org>
To: "General public mailing list for the discussion of Abstract
Wikipedia (aka Wikilambda)" <abstract-wikipedia@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Abstract-wikipedia] A few examples of functions
Message-ID:
<CA+bik1dPE60Vc-MWXso3AFTA5OpXSCdm-3W=FQT9CBY-G9Fjtg@mail.gmail.com>
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Hi Louis,

yes, you are right, but I want to point out that plural was not defined
as plural: string ➝ string but as plural: English noun ➝ string. So the
question is, what is English noun - and if that in turn was a wrapper
object around Wikidata Lexemes, say L3337, it would indeed be rather easy
to ask for the plural and get back "men" as a string.

Yes, one question is what does it mean to be side-effect free. If for
example we define that calls to Wikidata can be considered side-effect
free, as they are basically calls to a static(-ish) knowledge base, we got
that fixed. That is also needed for many of the other example functions.
The problem in that case is how much caching can we get away with.

So if we assume that Wikidata is available as a knowledge base for the
functions, then I think that all the functions offered in the examples
should be fine.

What do you think?

Thanks,
Denny

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 8:28 AM Louis Lecailliez <
louis.lecailliez@outlook.fr> wrote:

> Hi Denny,
>
> while a lot of functions make sense while we stay in the software realm,
> I'll note again that the ones concerning language have way too simplified
> signature to fullfil their role.
>
> For example
> * plural: English noun ➝ string
> is gonna work as a pure function if and only if every irregular plural
> forms of English (stuff like man/men) are hardcoded into the function
> itself; and I think we all agree that's not a good engineering practice.
> * plural: English noun, Dictionary<string, string> ➝ string
> would be a more appropriate signature here, conceptually a least. In
> reality, data will be pulled from Wikidata (if I'm not mistaken), which
> mean the function has side effect and is not pure. It seems the problematic
> of access to the data layer (whatever it is) is underspecified.
>
> I think it would be better to remove language generation signatures for
> the time being to not give the impression the problem space is trivially
> solvable by a function or two.
>
> Best regards,
> Louis Lecailliez
>
> ------------------------------
> *De :* Abstract-Wikipedia <abstract-wikipedia-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org>
> de la part de Denny Vrandečić <dvrandecic@wikimedia.org>
> *Envoyé :* mercredi 22 juillet 2020 14:30
> *À :* Abstract Wikipedia list <abstract-wikipedia@lists.wikimedia.org>
> *Objet :* [Abstract-wikipedia] A few examples of functions
>
> Hello all,
>
> I made a draft of possible function examples. I am not saying all of these
> are useful, or we will have these, or that these are the right signatures
> for the suggested functions, but this is more to illustrate the possible
> scope of the project we are aiming for.
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Abstract_Wikipedia/Early_function_examples
>
> Feel free to add, discuss, improve.
>
> Stay safe,
> Denny
>
> _______________________________________________
> Abstract-Wikipedia mailing list
> Abstract-Wikipedia@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/abstract-wikipedia
>
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Message: 2
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 22:08:13 -0400
From: Daniel Mietchen <daniel.mietchen@googlemail.com>
To: Abstract Wikipedia list <abstract-wikipedia@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: [Abstract-wikipedia] Budget of Abstract Wikipedia?
Message-ID:
<CAN6n2b0bfMy_bNERNGd-CCpPZXkxovdBPLyGyUTc92ua7PFDxw@mail.gmail.com>
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Hi all,

I am not aware of details on the funding of Abstract Wikipedia, neither the
funding needs nor currently available funds or any function of budget
(estimated, approved, requested, targeted etc.) over time.

Thanks for any pointers,

Daniel
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Message: 3
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 07:01:12 +0100 (BST)
From: Charles Matthews <charles.r.matthews@ntlworld.com>
To: "General public mailing list for the discussion of Abstract
Wikipedia (aka Wikilambda)" <abstract-wikipedia@lists.wikimedia.org>,
Mike Bennett <mbennett@hypercube.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Abstract-wikipedia] Conjugation and Declension Functions
(Adam Sobieski)
Message-ID: <1532791481.556824.1595484072853@mail2.virginmedia.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

> On 22 July 2020 at 17:43 Mike Bennett <mbennett@hypercube.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> So I think if you are going to try and identify language primitives at this kind of level, you are right into Chomsky territory, trying to find a universal set of abstractions from which to specialise for different language groups.
>
> Here you will find the bones of philosophers who have gone before.
>

My impression is that Denny wants a different approach. Something like: standardise on a thousand-page phrasebook that should exist for each of the target languages. Crank up its practical expressive power by attempting broader kinds of encyclopedic content. Leverage previous work in a piecemeal way.

It's going to be complex, as a software pipeline.

Charles
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Message: 4
Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 09:43:35 +0000
From: Adam Sobieski <adamsobieski@hotmail.com>
To: "General public mailing list for the discussion of Abstract
Wikipedia (aka Wikilambda)" <abstract-wikipedia@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Abstract-wikipedia] Conjugation and Declension Functions
(Adam Sobieski)
Message-ID:
<CH2PR12MB41844CAC4D18CA5C8799BEB8C5790@CH2PR12MB4184.namprd12.prod.outlook.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

Mike,

Thank you for your observations. It appears that conjugation and declension functions would be better to consider per language group or per individual language.

conjugate_en(…)
conjugate_bnt(…)
conjugate_ar(…)
…

Best regards,
Adam

From: Mike Bennett<mailto:mbennett@hypercube.co.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2020 12:43 PM
To: abstract-wikipedia@lists.wikimedia.org<mailto:abstract-wikipedia@lists.wikimedia.org>
Subject: Re: [Abstract-wikipedia] Conjugation and Declension Functions (Adam Sobieski)

Or more precisely, they differ in their nature and applicability in different language groups. See for example Bantu languages, which do conjugation and declension but against a list of typically a dozen noun classes, rather than 2 or 3 genders.

Meanwhile Semitic languages don't have the notion of an adjective and use instead different phrase stuctures.

So I think if you are going to try and identify language primitives at this kind of level, you are right into Chomsky territory, trying to find a universal set of abstractions from which to specialise for different language groups.

Here you will find the bones of philosophers who have gone before.

Mike

On 7/22/2020 12:29 PM, Charles Matthews via Abstract-Wikipedia wrote:

On 22 July 2020 at 17:08 Grounder UK <grounderuk@gmail.com><mailto:grounderuk@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm loving all these emails but I find it hard to keep track of the different topics. Someone find me a Wiki!

So, your question, Adam: " What do you think about conjugation and declension functions?"

In general, I'm against them. (Well, I'm English. What would you expect?)

In general, surely, they reflect Indo-European languages? Doubtless they are on topic, but three of the top ten Wikipedias, by visits, are not from that language group.

Charles

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