[Wikipedia-l] Saterlandic Frisian Wikipedia

Sat Mar 5 20:47:05 UTC 2005

And, if you were born in Westfriesland, I assume you can understand at
least a little bit of Frisian.

So.

West Frisian: "Wolkom by de Fryske ferzje fan 'Wikipedia'. Ynformaasje
op Wikipedy is frij en fergees te brûken. Foar jo gemak stiet lofts in
sykfunksje en hjirûnder kinne jo op ûnderwerp sykje."

East Frisian: "Ljude rakt et fuul un Lounde, do ap Goddes Waareld
stounde, man wät gungt deer wäil uur Seelter, un uur t litje
Seelterlound?"

North Frisian (peninsular): "„Jucht, üülje moune, jucht!" biiljked
Hääwelmoon, ouers e moune wus nargne tu schüns än e stääre uk ai; ja
wjarn ål åltumååle tu beed lim."

North Frisian (insular), Söl'ring: "Üüs Söl'ring Lön', dü best üüs
helig; dü blefst üüs ain, dü best üüs Lek! Din Wiis tö hual'en, sen wü
welig. Di Söl'ring Spraak auriit wü ek. Wü bliiv me di ark Tir
forbün'en, sa lung üs wü üp Warel' sen. Uk diar jaar Uuning bütlön'
fün'en,
Ja leng dach altert tö di hen."

All of these except Westlauwer Frisian ("Western Frisian") are spoken
in GERMANY, not the Netherlands.

I have seen these terms used extensively in books (for example
"linguistic minorities of western europe"), websites (Ethnologue,
Wikipedia, Lowlands-l, etc), and elsewhere both by Frisians and
non-Frisians.

If you know much Frisian at all you should be able to tell from the
samples what I am talking about. If you don't, you can show them to
your uncle, and ask him what he makes of them.

Mark

On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 21:32:30 +0100, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark,
> I was born in Zwaag. Zwaag is a small place with city rights and is now
> part of Hoorn. Zwaag can be found in Westfriesland. I assume that I have
> heard more Westfries spoken than you have. Hoorn, Medemblik and
> Enkhuizen, all Westfrisian cities, were some of the most important
> cities during the Dutch golden age. Apparently you assume that you know
> everything there is to know about all the languages in the word.  Oh, I
> forgot, I have an uncle whose name is Tijmstra, a respectable Frisian
> name. But then again, what do I know?
> 
> Thanks,
>     GerardM
> 
> Mark Williamson wrote:
> 
> >Apparently, you don't realise that there are basically 3 separate
> >Frisian languages.
> >
> >Saterlandic Frisian (East Frisian) speakers most definitely DO NOT use
> >Westlauwer Frisian (West Frisian) as their standard language, nor do
> >North Frisian speakers use Westlauwer Frisian (West Frisian) as their
> >standard language.
> >
> >I don't know if you realise it, but when you are speaking of
> >"Frisian", you seem to be referring only to that "Frisian" spoken in
> >the Netherlands (Westlauwer Frisian). There are related varieties
> >spoken in Germany, in places called "Ostfriesland" and
> >"Nordfriesland", which are not mutually intelligible with the Western
> >Frisian of the Netherlands.
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 15:06:30 +0100, Gerard Meijssen
> ><gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Hoi,
> >>
> >>The term "Westlauwers Fries" is something of an oddity. It is a term
> >>that is hardly used it is not commonly used. When it is used at all, it
> >>is by people who only talk to themselves. Westfries is not a dialect of
> >>Frisian. The term West Frisian may be used by some outside of the
> >>Netherlands, but in my opinion it only shows that they do not look
> >>further than their noses.
> >>
> >>Frisian (ISO 639: fy - the language taught in Dutch schools) is a fairly
> >>recent standardized version of different types of Frisian. Fries is one
> >>of the hot topics in the nl:wikipedia. It is full of people who want to
> >>push their POV on this topic. I hope we will use more disambiguation
> >>pages because in my opinion it is the way forward.
> >>
> >>Thanks,
> >>    GerardM
> >>
> >>Mark Williamson wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>I am discussing this, in English, and if I recall correctly, the
> >>>English terms "West Frisian" and "East Frisian" correspond to the
> >>>Dutch terms "Westlauwers Fries" and "Saterfries".
> >>>
> >>>I am not talking about Dutch dialects or dialects of Westlauwer
> >>>Frisian, but rather about the different varities of Frisian spoken
> >>>variously in two nations, the Netherlands (West Frisian) and Germany
> >>>(East Frisian, Peninsular North Frisian, Insular North Frisian; the
> >>>latter is sometimes even divided into separate languages for each
> >>>island).
> >>>
> >>>I know what I am talking about, I have seen many books in English that
> >>>refer to it this way, though I can't speak for Dutch since I haven't
> >>>read much of anything in Dutch.
> >>>
> >>>Mark
> >>>
> >>>On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 11:05:27 +0100, Gerard Meijssen
> >>><gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Mark,
> >>>>Westfries is not Frisian, it is not even spoken in Friesland. It is
> >>>>spoken in Noord Holland. Some consider this a language some consider it
> >>>>a dialect. However Fries is what goes by the code of fy. If you know
> >>>>Frisian as much as all these other languages, please use its proper name.
> >>>>
> >>>>NB the differences between Oostfries and Westfries are massive indeed :)
> >>>>
> >>>>Thanks,
> >>>>   GerardM
> >>>>
> >>>>Mark Williamson wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>The differences between West Frisian (spoken in the Netherlands) and
> >>>>>East Frisian (spoken in Saterland) are massive.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>It would be rediculous to use the same Wikipedia.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>It might be different if fy: already had some content in Saterland
> >>>>>Frisian, but to the best of my knowledge it is entirely in Western
> >>>>>Frisian with the exception of one article which is bilingual in
> >>>>>Western Frisian and North Frisian, and bilingual I mean it has two
> >>>>>separate versions)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Mark
> >>>>>
> >>>>>On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 15:22:58 -0500, Stephen Forrest
> >>>>><stephen.forrest at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 20:42:52 +0100, Wouter Steenbeek
> >>>>>><musiqolog at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I would like to apply for a Wikipedia in Saterlandic (East) Frisian. Further
> >>>>>>>details can be read at
> >>>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saterlandic_Frisian_language and soon at the
> >>>>>>>requests page.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>I believe you mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saterland_Frisian_language.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>For the purposes of ISO 639 codes, Saterland Frisian is regarded as a
> >>>>>>dialect of Frisian.  Can you provide a rationale for why working
> >>>>>>within the Frisian Wikipedia is not tenable?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>I seem to recall reading that there were different spelling
> >>>>>>conventions for the Frisian spoken in Germany and that spoken in the
> >>>>>>Netherlands.  I have no idea how significant these differences are.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Steve
> >>>>>>
>