[WikiEN-l] Annoying hatnotes

[Carcharoth]

That is exactly what I am talking about. What I am saying is that
there should be editorial judgment here, rather than a black-and-white
rule. My point is that these disambiguation hatnotes appeaer at the
top of articles are are (by design) the first thing read after the
title. They are a navigation aid. But they can also give something
undue prominence and they can distract from the article.

That is why I am saying that it is best to have a neutral form for hatnotes:

"For other things with this name, see XXXX (disambiguation)".

Or whatever the standard wording is.

What makes the encyclopedia look silly is when a hatnote at the top of
a core encyclopedia article says things like:

"For minor fictional character ABC, see <PAGE NAME>"
"For random sex toy named after this thing, see <PAGE NAME>"
"For obscure beer drinking game variant, see <PAGE NAME>"

And so on.

It is a trade-off between making people click one extra time, and
having some irrelevant trivia at the top of a serious encyclopedia
article. It is also about the rigidity of people who insist on
sticking to a rule about how many items should be on disambiguation
pages.

Anyway, in most cases of "two item disambiguation pages" there are
actually more than two items. Even if they are redlinks, it is
normally easy to expand said disambiguation page. That is preferable
to having the trivial hatnote forcing people to read about something
they might not want to read about.

It is a balance between:

1) People arriving at the article need to be able to continue to find
what they want (they can still do that by going to the disambiguation
page); or

2) People arriving at the article and going "that's the article I'm
looking for", but having to waste time reading some irrelevant
hatnote. Reading a hatnote that says "For other things with this name,
see XXXX (disambiguation)", distracts the reader far less than the
other examples I gave.

Do you get what I'm saying now?

If your reply is that we should rigidly stick to the "disambiguation
pages need more than two items" rule, then could you explain why that
rule is so important?

Carcharoth

On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 10:43 AM, <wjhonson at aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> Here is what I think you mean.  In a situation where there are only two
> items that might be confused with each other, should we have a page for
> those? Or should we, at the top of each item, merely point at the other
> item?  That's what it sounds like to me.  And in that situation, where
> we have two things both called say "White Glove", we should just point
> at each of them, from the top of the other article, thus not have a
> disamg page to list two items.
>
> Will Johnson
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carcharoth <carcharothwp at googlemail.com>
> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Sent: Thu, Aug 20, 2009 2:35 am
> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Annoying hatnotes
>
> OK. I'll break it down:
>
> 1) Do you accept that trivial disambiguations can be unencyclopedic?
>
> Carcharoth
>
> On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 2:59 AM, <wjhonson at aol.com> wrote:
>> I have no idea what you just ask.  That's a lot of jargon for one
>> question.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Carcharoth <carcharothwp at googlemail.com>
>> To: English Wikipedia <wikien-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>> Sent: Wed, Aug 19, 2009 1:06 pm
>> Subject: Re: [WikiEN-l] Annoying hatnotes
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Will, simple question: do you accept that trivial disambiguations can
>> be unencyclopedic and give the wrong impression, and if so, is having
>> a neutral dab hatlink better than a jarring note being sounded at the
>> t
> op of a page, the first thing the reader will read after the title?
>>
>> OK, that was a long simple question...
>>
>> Carcharoth
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 19, 2009 at 8:47 PM, <WJhonson at aol.com> wrote:
>>> This is how I do it.  If in "Plankton" we have only one other thing
>> named
>>> planton, then we shouldn't have a disamg page just for two items.
>>  That seems
>>> overkill.  So in that case SB_Plankton makes sense.  If however in
>> "Bob
>>> Jones" we have 15 people, 3 things, and 2 places named "Bob Jones"
>> then it
>>> makes sense to have a disamg page.
>>>
>>> I.E. there's a trade-off in having too many clicks, where it is?  two
>>> items? or three?
>>>
>>> W.J
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 8/19/2009 7:37:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>>> carcharothwp at googlemail.com writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>> If there really is a chance that
>>>> people will search for "plankton" in an attempt to find out about
> the
>>
>>
>>>> SB character, then the hatnote should be neutral and direct people
> to
>>>> a disambiguation page ("for other things named plankton, see here").
>>>> And I don't care if that disambiguation page only has two entries.
>>>> That is an acceptable trade-off to having a spongebob squarepants
>>>> character name jarring people's reading experience by being placed
> at
>>>> the top of an unrelated article.
>>>
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