[Foundation-l] Throwing some data onto the flamefest fire (was: English Wikipedia ethnocentric policy affects other communities)

Sat Dec 23 11:36:53 UTC 2006

Hoi,
http://www.omegawiki.org/Expression:%E3%83%A1%E3%83%AA%E3%83%BC%E3%82%AF%E3%83%AA%E3%82%B9%E3%83%9E%E3%82%B9
:)
Thanks,
     Gerard

Aphaia schreef:
> Dear Ms Walsh, and other fellow editors
>
> On 12/23/06, Kat Walsh <mindspillage at gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> On 12/22/06, Aphaia <aphaia at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Aphaia, I am very sorry that you feel this way. But I do not think
>> this post is very fair.
>>     
>
> At this point I have dirrerent point from you.
> Also I would like to say now some of you have been show no interest of
> my dignity. I sometimes said being addressed with family name without
> honorific is a serious offence to Japanese, specially married women.
> Some of you prefer to ignore my request and prefer to address me in
> such a way. Because you like it. And you think it sensible, friendly
> and so on.
>
> Having a westernized username was my compromise. Once I used my
> surname as my username and found it was hard to cease such rudenss
> toward me and my lineage. But now I realize such compromise makes
> nothing fruitful and only indulge you Westerners. I have been
> embarassed to be addressing my surname, Herr Erik Moeller and other
> people I think I said you sometimes but you decide to continue
> embarassing with your rudeness.
>
> I find here the similar thing - you may try to be civil and friendly,
> but your civility means to place a block and tell the victims to
> change their username. One user stated he didn't prefer since he used
> it on over forty wikis but you English admins only repeat "change your
> name".  I find here no civility nor frindliness. I find here only
> condecension and arrogance.
>
>   
>> Here are a few things I see, on the whole thread.
>>
>> 1. No one is interested in blocking anyone because of beliefs about ethnicity.
>>     
>
> No, even when they use their real name, you blocked them. You
> disrespect their ethnicity and force them to .
>
>   
>> It is a problem for administrators on any wiki to handle usernames
>> they cannot read or type. Reasonable people can disagree about whether
>> the problem justifies enwiki's current ways of dealing with it. And
>> reasonable people *do* disagree, which is why this thread has gone on
>> for so long and why there is so much argument about it. But it is not
>> about racism.
>>
>> 2. It is currently very difficult for users on any wiki, not just
>> English, to interact with users who do not have a username in the
>> script of that wiki's language.
>>
>> If you cannot read or type someone's username, it is hard to talk to
>> them, hard to tell people apart, hard to search for their
>> contributions, and many other things. In addition to the trouble
>> talking to real users, vandals know that it is difficult, and because
>> of this, they like to use this extra difficulty to cause trouble. And
>> I don't expect users on wikis where the language is not in Latin
>> script to be able to read a Latin script name, either.
>>
>> 3. Whether or not the policy is right, it doesn't excuse being rude to anybody.
>>
>> If anyone has been blocked with an uncivil message, or has not been
>> asked politely about changing their username, that administrator is
>> acting badly. But that is a fault of the person, not of the policy,
>> and that should stop no matter what else happens.
>>
>> 4. Everyone would like a good solution to this.
>>
>> If there were currently a solution that allowed editors to keep their
>> preferred names on every wiki, but allowed the users of every wiki to
>> interact with them without too much difficulty, everyone would be
>> happy. No one here wants to make others upset for no reason.
>>
>> 5. Solving this is difficult, and currently there is no fix that makes
>> everyone entirely happy.
>>
>> There are many attempts to deal with it that make people unhappy, and
>> just about every different attempted fix or work-around makes a
>> *different* group of people unhappy.
>>
>> 6. Making the argument personal is not helping anyone get the
>> solutions they want.
>>
>> There are a lot of people who are coming at this problem in good
>> faith, even if not everyone agrees with what they are doing. There are
>> a lot of people who have decided not to participate in this thread
>> because they do not want to be attacked or flamed. And we lose the
>> input of people who do want to help, but who either now feel like they
>> are not wanted or who do not want to get into an argument in the first
>> place.
>>
>> 7. Taking arguments personally is only going to make you miserable.
>>
>> No one is participating here just because they want to make anyone
>> else feel bad or look foolish. It's not a personal argument, and if
>> you feel like it is personal then perhaps it is time to step back and
>> take a break, go outside and relax and then come back. (If everyone
>> did that, there would not be so many messages to read, either.)
>>
>> *
>>
>> I would love a solution that makes everyone happy. I think there are
>> possibilities for solutions that will make it easier for everyone to
>> be happy. But we do not have them yet, and so it is still a real
>> problem with many different sides to it.
>>
>> I am sorry that you feel that you are being made to look like a fool,
>> or that you believe this is being done to be hurtful. But it is not
>> fair to make remarks such as this, or such as have been made by many
>> others at many other points in the thread, when everyone here is
>> coming at the problem in good faith. Even if you disagree with them.
>>
>> Effe iets anders posted earlier asking everyone to step back and not
>> take things personally, to recognize that reasonable people who do not
>> mean harm can disagree. I agree, and I have written at more length
>> than he has, but wanted to say more completely what I saw. I do not
>> see anyone here who has the intention of harming anyone, and I think
>> the thread would be much better and more productive if we could all
>> assume this to be true.
>>
>> -Kat
>>
>> --
>> Wikimedia needs you: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Fundraising
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>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Mindspillage | (G)AIM:Mindspillage
>> mindspillage or mind|wandering on irc.freenode.net | email for phone
>>
>>     
>
>
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