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+1 faith" principle is often forgotten. about issues I actually care about, I wonder how many other voices, like mine, aren't heard, and to what degree this undermines any eventual perceived consensus? but you unnecessarily weaken both your argument and the discussion. +many Yes on this list we have some strong opinions and we aren't always particularly careful about how we express them, but assume good faith[1] does indeed go a long way and that should be the default mode for reading. The default mode for writing should of course be "don't be a dick" [2]. We have to remember that although many people are well versed in English here, it is often not their mother tongue, making it more difficult to understand the subtleties of the opinions of others and/or to express theirs, which might lead to frustration for both sides. And some people are simply terse where others are blunt and some people have more time than others to create replies or to wait for someones attempts to explain something properly. Being inclusive for this reason is usually regarded as a good thing and is thus a natural part of assume good faith. It is why 'civility' often is so difficult too map directly to community standards, because it is too tightly coupled with ones own norms, values and skills to be inclusive. I'm personally good with almost anything that keeps a good distance from both Linus Torvalds-style and NVC. We shouldn't be afraid to point out errors or have hefty discussions and we need to keep it inside the lines where people will want to participate. But this is no kindergarten either and some of the more abrasive postings have made a positive difference. It's difficult to strike the right balance but it's good to ask people once in a while to pay attention to how we communicate. DJ [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Assume_good_faith [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_be_a_dick PS. Because this behavior makes me not want to participate in discussions about issues I actually care about, I wonder how many other voices, like mine, aren't heard, and to what degree this undermines any eventual perceived consensus? If that's what you think of wikitech-l, I assume it is easy to guess what you think about the talk page of Jimmy Wales, en.wp's Request for adminship and en.wp's Administrator noticeboard ? :) PPS. I'm quite sure Linus would burn NVC to the ground if he had the chance :) For those who haven't followed it and who have a bit of time on their hands: There was a very 'interesting' flamewar about being more professional in communication on the Linux kernel mailinglist last July. http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/ 07/linus-torvalds-defends-his-right-to-shame-linux-kernel-developers/ If you distance yourself a bit and just read everything, you'll find that there is some basic truth to both sides of the spectrum and it basically once again sums up to: we often forget how potty trained we are, even more so that there are different styles of potty around the world and whether or not a human/animal actually needs training to go potty to begin with. That doesn't give an answer, but it's an interesting/lively discussion every single time :D Slightly related fun: https://twitter.com/wyshynski/statuses/430734034113536000 On Feb 17, 2014, at 11:45 AM, "Derric Atzrott" < >> datzrott(a)alizeepathology.com&gt; wrote: > Hoy all, >>> I've been meaning to start a thread about this for a while, but just >> hadn't > gotten around to it. Things have been rather heated the past few days, >> so I > figured now would be as good a time as any to go about starting this >> thread. > Have any of you ever heard of Non-Violent Communication (NVC). It's a >> method of > communicating, well really more a method of thinking, that aims to >> reduce and > resolve conflicts between people. NVC has sometimes also been called >> Empathetic > Communication or Needs Based Communication. The idea of NVC is to >> frame the > discussion in terms of needs and feelings, followed up by requests. >> "Nonviolent > Communication holds that most conflicts between individuals or groups >> arise from > miscommunication about their human needs, due to coercive or >> manipulative > language that aims to induce fear, guilt, shame, etc. These 'violent' >> modes of > communication, when used during a conflict, divert the attention of the >> participants away from clarifying their needs, their feelings, their >> perceptions, and their requests, thus perpetuating the conflict." [0] >>> The core of NVC is an NVC expression, which is made up of four >> components: > Observations ("When I see/hear/notice..."), Feelings ("...I feel..."), >> Needs > ("...because I need/value..."), and Requests ("Would you be willing >> to...?"). > Observations are the facts themselves, and are not broad >> generalizations. > Feelings are emotions, they are distinct from stories, thoughts, and >> evaluations. Feelings are also self-owned and not attributed to others >> (so one > doesn't feel attacked, one feels angry, likewise one doesn't feel >> betrayed, one > feels hurt or stunned, or perhaps even outraged). Finally requests are >> simply > that requests, but they are not demands. You have to be willing to >> hear the > other person say no. >>> To take a recent example from the mailing list: >> "Cool, I'll just pop in. Oh, wait." (David, I want you to know I am not >> picking > a quote from you specifically for any reason, it was just one that >> stood out to > me as something that could have been much better expressed within the >> NVC > framework) >>> This could have been expressed as: >> When people talk about things off-list, I feel resentful and frustrated >> because > my needs for community, consideration, and to be heard are not being >> met. Would > you be willing to keep the discussion on-list so that I can participate? >>> NVC values honestly expressing your own needs and feeling and >> empathetically > listening to those of others. Two things that really harm this >> connection are > blaming others and blaming ourselves. >>> I really encourage everyone on this list to do a little bit of reading >> into NVC. > I've linked to the Wikipedia article at the bottom of this email along >> with the > website for the Center for Non-Violent Communication. The NVC way of >> thinking > has really made a huge difference in how I understand and express >> myself to > people. I'm by no means perfect at it myself, but even with the >> practice that I > have I've already seen a huge improvement in how I relate to others. I >> really > think that it could do a lot of good here. >>> Thank you, >> Derric Atzrott >> Computer Specialist >> Alizee Pathology >>> [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication NVC on >> Wikipedia > [1] http://www.cnvc.org/ Center for Non-Violent Communication >> [2] https://www.cnvc.org/Training/feelings-inventory Feelings >> Inventory (really > useful for those of us who aren't in touch with our feelings, like >> myself) > [3] http://www.cnvc.org/Training/needs-inventory Needs Inventory (also >> very > useful for those of us who aren't in touch with our needs, again, like >> myself) >> _______________________________________________ >> Wikitech-l mailing list >> Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org >> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l >> _______________________________________________ > Wikitech-l mailing list > Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l _______________________________________________ Wikitech-l mailing list Wikitech-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l _______________________________________________