Legal threat for Wikimedia community volunteers in India getting WMF grants - WikimediaIndia-l

Srikanth Ramakrishnan

13 May 13 May

2:28 p.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Legal threat for Wikimedia community volunteers in India getting WMF grants

Is receiving money as an individual from a foreign body in violation of the Act? If that is so, won't half of India be violating it? I have a copy of the Act from the Ministry of Law and Justice and it doesn't seem to say so. On 13 May 2014 19:11, Ravishankar <ravidreams(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hey, Is there a legal threat for Wikimedia community volunteers in India getting Individual engagement grants and grants for running community events from WMF? An alert regarding this has been raised here: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/… Any professional legal / financial advise will be much appreciated. Thanks, Ravi _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

-- Regards, Srikanth Ramakrishnan, What goes around, may not necessarily come around, it may simply bounce back. Please sign this petition for Volvo buses in Coimbatore: https://www.change.org/en-IN/petitions/the-transport-minister-tamil-nadu-in…

Reply

Vishnu

14 May 14 May

12:49 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Legal threat for Wikimedia community volunteers in India getting WMF grants

Dear Hari, I seriously refute the way you are wrongly interpreting my intentions. It is never my intention nor style of work to threaten anyone, least of all a Wikimedian friend like Ravi. I was only making a legal point that we as a movement should look into and I have very clearly stated that we should take this concern on board. I have also amply stated that my interpretation is up for correction. Ravi, if you think, event remotely, that I am trying to threaten you, I profusely apologize. If you or the community members think that I was wrong to take the Tamil Wiki 10 celebration example to illustrate a legal point [1], apologies for that too. I was only doing it to state a point without any intention of malice or wrong doing what-so-ever. Cheers, Vishnu [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/… On Wednesday 14 May 2014 01:46 AM, Hari Prasad Nadig wrote:

...

Ravi, While I do not approve of the way this has been worded here or presented here by you, it does seem like a veiled threat clearly directed towards you by Vishnu for your speaking out (which has been quite vehement, to be honest). And an apparent threat like this coming in from a Program Director does look very ugly. The worst thing is that it seems to be trying to distract readers from the actual issues. I sincerely hope that Vishnu shall clear this up with an appropriate step that befits his position and the respect his position merits. And I wish and hope these shall not happen in future. On 14 May 2014 00:58, Srikanth Ramakrishnan <rsrikanth05(a)gmail.com <mailto:rsrikanth05@gmail.com>> wrote: Is receiving money as an individual from a foreign body in violation of the Act? If that is so, won't half of India be violating it? I have a copy of the Act from the Ministry of Law and Justice and it doesn't seem to say so. On 13 May 2014 19:11, Ravishankar <ravidreams(a)gmail.com <mailto:ravidreams@gmail.com>> wrote: Hey, Is there a legal threat for Wikimedia community volunteers in India getting Individual engagement grants and grants for running community events from WMF? An alert regarding this has been raised here: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/… Any professional legal / financial advise will be much appreciated. Thanks, Ravi _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l -- Regards, Srikanth Ramakrishnan, What goes around, may not necessarily come around, it may simply bounce back. Please sign this petition for Volvo buses in Coimbatore: https://www.change.org/en-IN/petitions/the-transport-minister-tamil-nadu-in… _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l -- Hari Prasad Nadig http://hpnadig.net http://twitter.com/hpnadig http://flickr.com/hpnadig _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Reply

Vishnu

5:32 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Legal threat for Wikimedia community volunteers in India getting WMF grants

On Wednesday 14 May 2014 11:29 AM, Ravishankar wrote:

...

How were programs like India Education program run? Will this come under FCRA violation? How is the IEP different from any community led event in receiving foreign money and executing projects?

Dear Ravi, I do not have a clue how this was done. It is best to seek clarification from the team that was involved from WMF. Best, Vishnu

Reply

Ravishankar

9:51 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Legal threat for Wikimedia community volunteers in India getting WMF grants

Ansuman, Please make the email conersation public or withdraw your allegation that Vishnu threatened you. Baseless or one sided allegations will only show the community in poor light. Ravi

Reply

ansuman

1:13 p.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Legal threat for Wikimedia community volunteers in India getting WMF grants

If anybody wants to read the conversation, drop me an email, I will share the part where Vishnu misunderstood and took it as a threat, and his reply threatening me on the same note. He was not the right person to share my concerns, writing the email on the first place was a mistake by me. So there is no point of accusing him. Right now there are important issues being discussed, lets focus on that. Thanks. Ansuman On 14 May 2014 20:23, Ravishankar <ravidreams(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Sunil, Thanks for once again confirming that Wikipedia India Trust had no role in former WMF India programs. My intention is not to investigate if WMF adhered to local laws while running the program but to highlight that community led programs with WMF grants are no different in execution from WMF run programs like IEP. Ravi _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Reply

Srikanth Ramakrishnan

1:49 p.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Legal threat for Wikimedia community volunteers in India getting WMF grants

If anyone wants, please contact Ansuman offlist for the mails. There is no need to splash them around needlessly. If it is a matter of serious concern, you can take it up with WMF or FDC. On May 15, 2014 11:58 PM, "Jayantilal Kothari" <jayantilalkkd(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Ansuman: Can you please share the mail public? -Jayantilal. On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 11:43 PM, ansuman <ansumang(a)gmail.com> wrote:

If anybody wants to read the conversation, drop me an email, I will share the part where Vishnu misunderstood and took it as a threat, and his reply threatening me on the same note. He was not the right person to share my concerns, writing the email on the first place was a mistake by me. So there is no point of accusing him. Right now there are important issues being discussed, lets focus on that. Thanks. Ansuman On 14 May 2014 20:23, Ravishankar <ravidreams(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Sunil, Thanks for once again confirming that Wikipedia India Trust had no role in former WMF India programs. My intention is not to investigate if WMF adhered to local laws while running the program but to highlight that community led programs with WMF grants are no different in execution from WMF run programs like IEP. Ravi _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

_______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Reply

ansuman

17 May 17 May

1:47 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Legal threat for Wikimedia community volunteers in India getting WMF grants

I have already said myself that Vishnu misunderstood my words as a threat when it was not. Mistaking my words he had said, what he had to say. And later he had apologised in the same thread. That's why I said he has very poor understanding skills. And also i have said already 'there is no point accusing him, writing the email on the first place was a mistake by me'. If that was not clear enough, let me say again. I'm dropping the allegation against Vishnu. Thanks Ravi. Ansuman On 16 May 2014 18:52, Ravishankar <ravidreams(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hi, I requested Ansuman to share his email conversation with Vishnu. He gave only a very brief snippet. From what was shared with me, it is impossible to form a clear opinion about the conversation. So the benefit of doubt should go to Vishnu. The conversation goes like this: Ansuman states that he will have to escalate some issue (which cannot be known unless the full conversation is shared) to the attention of WMF staff. Vishnu views this as a potential threat, says this is against Wikipedia's Five pillars and says if such moves are made in future this can be held against Ansuman in a public platform (the nature of this platform is unclear. It could be even a open discussion in mailing list of META) It is my personal judgment that neither of them have made any real threats of serious nature even though either party is bound to feel so in the heat of the conversation. So, I request Ansuman to drop his allegation against Vishnu. Doing so will only boost the integrity of the community and let us focus on real issues. Ravi _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Reply

ansuman

16 May 16 May

2:35 p.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Legal threat for Wikimedia community volunteers in India getting WMF grants

It's not a serious issue like I said already. And he had already apologised for the same back then. Unlike him I had not taken it as a threat. I just wanted to share, that happened. Period. Ansuman On 16 May 2014 00:19, Srikanth Ramakrishnan <rsrikanth05(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

If anyone wants, please contact Ansuman offlist for the mails. There is no need to splash them around needlessly. If it is a matter of serious concern, you can take it up with WMF or FDC. On May 15, 2014 11:58 PM, "Jayantilal Kothari" <jayantilalkkd(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Ansuman: Can you please share the mail public? -Jayantilal. On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 11:43 PM, ansuman <ansumang(a)gmail.com> wrote:

If anybody wants to read the conversation, drop me an email, I will share the part where Vishnu misunderstood and took it as a threat, and his reply threatening me on the same note. He was not the right person to share my concerns, writing the email on the first place was a mistake by me. So there is no point of accusing him. Right now there are important issues being discussed, lets focus on that. Thanks. Ansuman On 14 May 2014 20:23, Ravishankar <ravidreams(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Sunil, Thanks for once again confirming that Wikipedia India Trust had no role in former WMF India programs. My intention is not to investigate if WMF adhered to local laws while running the program but to highlight that community led programs with WMF grants are no different in execution from WMF run programs like IEP. Ravi _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

_______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Reply

ansuman

2:15 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Legal threat for Wikimedia community volunteers in India getting WMF grants

I have had a similar experience with Vishnu when I first wrote an email (prior to the job application) to him with the concerns about A2K. He couldn't understand my concerns, misunderstood my intention, and threaten me without seeking clarification. That day I knew of his intentions and understanding of Wikimedia movement; the reason i have been keeping track of their work plans, activities and pointing out mistakes. He always makes such mistakes and when someone points out, he denies the allegations. Ansuman On 14 May 2014 12:29, Hari Prasad Nadig <hpnadig(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Vishnu, What you were writing there was fairly off-topic, and quite unnecessary. And that hints of malice. In retrospect, that could have been seriously avoided. It also dangerously undermines other community members who're willing to speak out expressing their opinion in an open discussion. I protest and object strongly to the way it has been put forward. On 14 May 2014 11:19, Vishnu <visdaviva(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Hari, I seriously refute the way you are wrongly interpreting my intentions. It is never my intention nor style of work to threaten anyone, least of all a Wikimedian friend like Ravi. I was only making a legal point that we as a movement should look into and I have very clearly stated that we should take this concern on board. I have also amply stated that my interpretation is up for correction. Ravi, if you think, event remotely, that I am trying to threaten you, I profusely apologize. If you or the community members think that I was wrong to take the Tamil Wiki 10 celebration example to illustrate a legal point [1], apologies for that too. I was only doing it to state a point without any intention of malice or wrong doing what-so-ever. Cheers, Vishnu [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/… On Wednesday 14 May 2014 01:46 AM, Hari Prasad Nadig wrote: Ravi, While I do not approve of the way this has been worded here or presented here by you, it does seem like a veiled threat clearly directed towards you by Vishnu for your speaking out (which has been quite vehement, to be honest). And an apparent threat like this coming in from a Program Director does look very ugly. The worst thing is that it seems to be trying to distract readers from the actual issues. I sincerely hope that Vishnu shall clear this up with an appropriate step that befits his position and the respect his position merits. And I wish and hope these shall not happen in future. On 14 May 2014 00:58, Srikanth Ramakrishnan <rsrikanth05(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:

Is receiving money as an individual from a foreign body in violation of the Act? If that is so, won't half of India be violating it? I have a copy of the Act from the Ministry of Law and Justice and it doesn't seem to say so. On 13 May 2014 19:11, Ravishankar <ravidreams(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Hey, Is there a legal threat for Wikimedia community volunteers in India getting Individual engagement grants and grants for running community events from WMF? An alert regarding this has been raised here: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/… Any professional legal / financial advise will be much appreciated. Thanks, Ravi _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

-- Regards, Srikanth Ramakrishnan, What goes around, may not necessarily come around, it may simply bounce back. Please sign this petition for Volvo buses in Coimbatore: https://www.change.org/en-IN/petitions/the-transport-minister-tamil-nadu-in… _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

-- Hari Prasad Nadig http://hpnadig.net http://twitter.com/hpnadig http://flickr.com/hpnadig _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing listWikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

-- Hari Prasad Nadig http://hpnadig.net http://twitter.com/hpnadig http://flickr.com/hpnadig _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Reply

ansuman

3:43 a.m.

New subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Legal threat for Wikimedia community volunteers in India getting WMF grants

Why would someone threaten the other when writing an email for the first time, without knowing their intention! Yes, you threaten me, saying not to threaten when it was not a threat. As i have mentioned earlier your understanding skills are very poor, and you failed to understand the Wikimedia movement and the community in general. I don't think that is required, everyone here is free to believe. And being a volunteer, my words are hardly taken into consideration. And I just wanted to let others know of your intentions towards the movement, an apology is not going to fix the issue here. Ansuman On 14 May 2014 13:25, Vishnu <visdaviva(a)gmail.com> wrote:

...

Dear Ansuman, I am assuming that you are referring to our e-mail exchange during April 29 to June 26, 2013. Firstly, it was I who brought to your notice to not threaten in my e-mail dated June 25, 2013. At which point you indicted me of threatening you. It would be best if you could share the entire e-mail discussion for an objective assessment by any senior Wikimedian and I would tender an apology should I be at wrong. Best, Vishnu On Wednesday 14 May 2014 12:45 PM, ansuman wrote: I have had a similar experience with Vishnu when I first wrote an email (prior to the job application) to him with the concerns about A2K. He couldn't understand my concerns, misunderstood my intention, and threaten me without seeking clarification. That day I knew of his intentions and understanding of Wikimedia movement; the reason i have been keeping track of their work plans, activities and pointing out mistakes. He always makes such mistakes and when someone points out, he denies the allegations. Ansuman On 14 May 2014 12:29, Hari Prasad Nadig <hpnadig(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Vishnu, What you were writing there was fairly off-topic, and quite unnecessary. And that hints of malice. In retrospect, that could have been seriously avoided. It also dangerously undermines other community members who're willing to speak out expressing their opinion in an open discussion. I protest and object strongly to the way it has been put forward. On 14 May 2014 11:19, Vishnu <visdaviva(a)gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Hari, I seriously refute the way you are wrongly interpreting my intentions. It is never my intention nor style of work to threaten anyone, least of all a Wikimedian friend like Ravi. I was only making a legal point that we as a movement should look into and I have very clearly stated that we should take this concern on board. I have also amply stated that my interpretation is up for correction. Ravi, if you think, event remotely, that I am trying to threaten you, I profusely apologize. If you or the community members think that I was wrong to take the Tamil Wiki 10 celebration example to illustrate a legal point [1], apologies for that too. I was only doing it to state a point without any intention of malice or wrong doing what-so-ever. Cheers, Vishnu [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/… On Wednesday 14 May 2014 01:46 AM, Hari Prasad Nadig wrote: Ravi, While I do not approve of the way this has been worded here or presented here by you, it does seem like a veiled threat clearly directed towards you by Vishnu for your speaking out (which has been quite vehement, to be honest). And an apparent threat like this coming in from a Program Director does look very ugly. The worst thing is that it seems to be trying to distract readers from the actual issues. I sincerely hope that Vishnu shall clear this up with an appropriate step that befits his position and the respect his position merits. And I wish and hope these shall not happen in future. On 14 May 2014 00:58, Srikanth Ramakrishnan <rsrikanth05(a)gmail.com>wrote;wrote:

Is receiving money as an individual from a foreign body in violation of the Act? If that is so, won't half of India be violating it? I have a copy of the Act from the Ministry of Law and Justice and it doesn't seem to say so. On 13 May 2014 19:11, Ravishankar <ravidreams(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Hey, > > Is there a legal threat for Wikimedia community volunteers in India > getting Individual engagement grants and grants for running community > events from WMF? > > An alert regarding this has been raised here: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/… > > Any professional legal / financial advise will be much appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Ravi > > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimediaindia-l mailing list > Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org > To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l > > -- Regards, Srikanth Ramakrishnan, What goes around, may not necessarily come around, it may simply bounce back. Please sign this petition for Volvo buses in Coimbatore: https://www.change.org/en-IN/petitions/the-transport-minister-tamil-nadu-in… _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

-- Hari Prasad Nadig http://hpnadig.net http://twitter.com/hpnadig http://flickr.com/hpnadig _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing listWikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

-- Hari Prasad Nadig http://hpnadig.net http://twitter.com/hpnadig http://flickr.com/hpnadig _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

_______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing listWikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l

Reply