On 01/12/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail(a)itam.ws> wrote: OK: Splitting Serbo-Croatian into three wikis was a ridiculous mistake, and does not justify compounding the error. - d.

Darko Bulatovic schreef: Hoi, Sabine asked some colleagues (translators) on the mailing lists for professional translators about Montenegrin, the universal answer is that Montenegrin and Serbian is the same language. The point here is that when it DOES make a difference, translators will have business by adapting it for use on the Montenegrin market. In this a text prepared for the Dutch market is different from a Belgian market because there being a big discrepancy in the vocabulary .. all this does not deny us both speaking Dutch. Thanks, GerardM

Gerard she could try this professional translation company. They do translate from/to Montenegrin language: http://www.spes.hr/Main_PortalPage.aspx?external=true&kolumna=20&br… As you can see it is not even Montenegrin Company. Regards, Darko Bulatovic

Sabine Cretella wrote: Sabin, this is joke? right? Please tell when it is a joke as i am not very funny when this topic is subject. Those companies have limited language translations. I hope that you don't suggest that they translate to all languages of world? But Sabin, you talk about politic, your statement is colored by politic. Not mine. I am just wondered by this epilogue here. mainly in English or Multilingual as France, Italian Russian, etc... In 99% there is no any of similar languages. That is not a wonder as Montenegro is very small market. beside English I can use Croat, Bosnian as even as Serbian. That is case as I was born in country (SFR Yugoslavia) where we all learned unified language. That is very narrow research - one man is not enough. You didn't do much effort on this topic but you did rush to make decision. Professionals have limited area of work and they are specialized on some field not all. Let him translate this: Vidite li čudo, Crnogorci! Prisuka sam pedeset godinah, na Lovćen sam vazda ljetovao, izlazio na ovu vršinu: sto putah sam gledao oblake đe iz mora dođu na gomile i prekrile svu ovu planinu, otisni se tamo ali tamo s sijevanjem i s velikom jekom i s lomljavom strašnijeh gromovah; sto putah sam ovđena sjedio i grija se mirno sprama sunca, a pod sobom munje i gromove gleda, sluša đeno cijepaju; gleda jekom grada stravičnoga đe s' poda mnom jalove oblaci, al' ovoga čuda jošt ne viđeh! Vidite li, ako boga znate, koliko je mora i primorja, ravne Bosne i Hercegovine, Arbanije upravo do mora, koliko je naše Gore Crne, sve je oblak pritiska jednako, svud se čuje jeka i grmljava, svud ispod nas munje sijevaju, a nas jedne samo sunce grije. I dosta je dobro primarilo ka je ovo brdo vazda hladno. or this: A cujes li kumim te kapicom kako avetaju ovizi ovudijena, lutkica je sad pocela o bliskom istoku ovi kako u rvacku mogu posrat pre$ednika ,no o temi nista !!!!!!!!!!!! Ja mnim e bi me strpali u ludnicu kad bi lanuo nesto za Gorana Persona ,a kamoli da ga nazivam lopovom ubicom marlborom itd itd ! No na TEMU kudj se djedose oni slini procenti % te citah potonjijeh godina ???? jesuli uvidjeli momcici da propaganda veljeserbska im je unistila drzavu i zivot ??? To mene interesuje ! Please force him to be honest here and not to use other dictionaries. My operating system is in English. Sabine please, let be honest here, I don't make problem, you make problem and don't switch these here. You didn't do your work and this level of discussion is not what I expected from member of language committee. I have given a proof of (professional) company that do translation from/to Montenegrin and you give me companies that don't? What that mean?If I find translation company that don't translate to Hindu that language don't exist?... You need to find alibi to clear your self for not doing what you should? Or at least to ask for some facts that will show more clearly this topic. Instead you jump into conclusion. It is easier i know. But you denied my identity and identity of my people,Denied our own language forcing-suggesting to use language of different people. You talked all time about politics. And now lets talk about politics I know who I am and I know in which language I talk and you constantly deny that. How should I feel about this? You in this way support pro Miloshevic and national-chauvinism politic from Belgrade which denied natural right to have his own identity to anyone from former Yugoslavia. This is anti democratic and anti human. This looks to me, sadly, like situation that happen on beginning of 90 when Serbs forced all to be under their national identity and because this was all wars on Balkan. Your opinion seems to me that is under this sort of propaganda. Today when war is over and we know everything what happen and we did go peacefully for our freedom, you make you self blind and you talk me about working under Serbian wikipedia? I hoped that this is not a case about you Lady. You seems don't know that all nation are forced to go out from Yugoslavia because this kind of "story". It is ok by me I understand that you have some private business that you need to spare more time but please don't justify your self by using this kind of discussion(tv manuals, companies that don't use Montenegrin to translate,OS ...)as this case affect one (half million) people and one language. I think that members of committee made this the problem as their judgment was not based on fairness or truth. It is based on something that they need to explain. I am waiting that explanation officially. Thank you, Darko Bulatovic p.s. I have see that other write Sabin so I am sorry if I used this in wrong way.

--- geni <geniice(a)gmail.com> wrote: This right here is the key the whole thread. Wikipedia sub-domains are seperated by written languages not nations. The goal should be to have the least amount of subdomains possible to concetrate reasources. When in doubt we should not create a subdomain. The question I have is are we going to examine all current (or at least inactive) subdomains in the near future for merging possibilities? Birgitte SB ____________________________________________________________________________________ Cheap talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates. http://voice.yahoo.com

On 02/12/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail(a)itam.ws> wrote: I don't know if you've noticed, but you've so far managed to convince absolutely no-one here. - d.

David Gerard wrote: I am not at all convinced that we should have even the 3 wikipedias we have right now. In general, it is quite reasonable to say that there is in fact one language here, not 3, not 4, not 10. The problem of two writing systems is a difficult one, yes. But the fact remains that if you sit down over a beer with people from all these dialects, they can laugh and joke and have fun together just as well as people with different dialects of English. --Jimbo

Can we please have a separate list for language discussions, something like language-l(a)wikimedia.org ? This request has come up many times before; we now have a dedicated language group, steady traffic on the requests for new languages page, and enough experienced people thinking constantly about language issues, that it makes some sense to give these discussions their own archive. Of course people should always be welcome to come to foundation-l to discuss this kind of organizational issue, but then it would at least be possible to request a specific type of proposal, to say at some point "it is not productive to continue this thread on the general foundation list", or to ask each participant in a flame war to limit themselves to one post per day on the topic. These language issues are extremely important; but they involve a small number of repeated stances and counter-stances. There are also many other extremely important foundation-level issues which are not being discussed as much as they should be, and which are harder to define -- making it harder to have enthusisatic flame wars about them -- which should be given their own room. -- SJ On Sat, 2 Dec 2006, Darko Bulatovic wrote:

--- Milos Rancic <millosh(a)gmail.com> wrote: If this is about preferences how is different than all the variations of English spoken in the world? Each variation has it's own standards etc. And en.WP works quite well settling out which variety would be used for each article. It is a bad idea to unnecessarily divide reasources. Do you not understand how difficult it is to keep ontop of the basic adminstrative tasks in a small wiki? I think there needs to strong definitive reasons for creating a subdomain. If it is questionable don't create it. Birgitte SB Birgitte SB ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index

SJ Klein wrote: I think it got merged into wikipedia-l... Mindspillage's law: As the length of an argument on wikipedia-l or foundation-l approaches infinity, the probability of it turning into a language debate approaches 1. -- Alphax - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax Contributor to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia "We make the internet not suck" - Jimbo Wales Public key: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Alphax/OpenPGP

Birgitte SB wrote: Birgitte, If you find that taking out of context is right thing to do, no problem. Darko Bulatovic

On 12/2/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail(a)itam.ws> wrote: Lanaguages take more than a handfull of years to die. Is it written in english? I'm not trying to claim that. I'm putting forward a position that you are useing the wrong name for it. Last I cheacked his part wasn't doing to well in elections. You claim half a million speakers. If we were to accept that Montenegrin does exist as a seperate language then at most it has little more than 150K speajkers. There is nowehere for half a million speakers to come from. -- geni

On 12/3/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail(a)itam.ws> wrote: And yet the country is able to function without that. It would be very hard for the UK to function with german as the official langauge, But no one else has to accept that name If I tried to rename my language to yorkshirese I think you would ignore that. English has a somwhat limited history of careing about what the locals call their language ( just ask the germans) Considering the demographics on montenegro that is somewhat unlikely. If Montenegrin does exist as a seperate language most likely it is only spoken in that form in the centre of Montenegro That would only be posible if does not exist other than as a renameing of a form of Serbo-Croatian. Addopting a new constitution is unlikely to result in much of a linguistic shift in the population -- geni

David Gerard wrote: Dialect of what? Serbian? Darko Bulatovic