Hi Ariel, Denny, and Wikimedians,
I sent this at noon today, but it didn't go through to this email address,
so am re-sending now from here.
Suggestions about how these email lists might work differently?
Best, Scott
Scott MacLeod <worlduniversityandschool(a)gmail.com>
12:01 PM (5 hours ago)
to Wikimedia
Thanks, Ariel, Denny, and Wikimedians,
Re your observations, I wonder, conceptually, if the end-to-end Translation
approach of Google Translate would render what you suggest, Ariel (e.g.
someone could translate an article from a language Wikipedia and this would
produce a single translation i.e. "one article for all
audiences"), whereas developing, conceptually, a different translator
approach - i.e. from Language A to Language B - conceptually, and perhaps
building such a hypothetical translator from Wikidata's Lexicographical
project, could yield "information depending on their role in the
communities of the speakers of a
given language" (leaving aside the Wikimedia's ContentTranslation project
at this stage).
And I wonder re 1), Denny and Ariel, beyond cultural contexts /
differences / borders, and your Portugal and Brazil example, whether one
might add in a country approach as well. Re 2 & 3) I wonder what role
interpretation plays in writing a NPOV article in any given language, and
vis-a-vis Abstract Wikipedia too, and how these NPOV interpretations offer
benefits in their great diversity (in terms of Wikipedia's goal: "to build
a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of
all knowledge"), and the benefits of "displaying the local articles
whenever available" for inter-lingual knowledge-generation.
Thanks for the very thoughtful questions and responses.
Cheers, Scott
On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 5:25 PM Denny Vrandečić <vrandecic(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Ariel,
thanks for the very thoughtful question. I got asked this question every
time I present it, and during the Blue Sky presentation this question - or
a variation of it - was asked three times. It really is on top of people's
mind!
My answer is half inconsistent, I am afraid, because I have by now come up
with three ways to answer this question, and they contradict each other. So
I am glad to hear more thoughts on it.
Here are the three answers:
1) I think that language is a pretty bad delimiter to keep points of view
apart. Yes, sure, it allows the Japanese Wikipedia to offer a different
description of World War 2 than the Korean Wikipedia has, but I am not sure
that is entirely a good thing. We don't have two Wikipedias for Portugal
and Brazil, they have to agree and what they say, but we have Wikipedias in
Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian, Serbocroatian... and I am not sure that the
outcome of this decision is fully positive. So, my main point is, if we
really want to capture cultural differences, let's align the borders of the
editions of Wikipedia along these cultures. But aligning the cultural
borders solely along language borders is badly imperfect.
2) But in general, I think that accepting that different Wikipedias should
have different contents are incompatible with our NPOV policy. Now we could
have a lengthy discussion whether NPOV is a good policy or not. But in
general, I'd really prefer to have all points of views being presented with
their due weight in all languages, instead of using languages to represent
a point of view only in one language, and have a different point of view in
another language. I would love to be able to read both the Japanese and the
Korean point of view on contentious issues between these two countries - as
I can in Serbian and Croatian, because I can read both languages just fine
- but I think it is rather problematic that language barriers dictate the
point of view I have access to. In fact, in many cases, we can see in the
English speaking Wikipedia how the very same editors from the say Croatian
and Serbian Wikipedia come to a more balanced result in the English
Wikipedia, which they wouldn't accept in their 'home' Wikipedias. Funny,
isn't it?
3) More importantly, and entirely disagreeing with #1 and #2, is that the
Abstract Wikipedia never suggests to replace the current language editions,
but to fill up the gaps in any given language edition. So, if the Croatian
Wikipedia really wants to go into details on Croatian folk songs and
Croatian food items, they should be totally able to do so without having to
feel bad that they might be missing basic information about South American
countries and Australian Aboriginal cultures. In fact, what I hope is that
each language edition can choose to display the renderings from the
Abstract Wikipedia for most articles, and then they can concentrate on
creating in-depth articles on the topics they really care about - local
cities, cultures, traditions. I remember in the beginning when working on
the Croatian Wikipedia - it feels weird to work on the article about a
local dish if you're still missing articles on all chemical elements. How
can I write an article about the town my mom lives in (pop. 148) if there
is no article yet about the country of Mexico? The abstract Wikipedia has
the ability to lessen that pressure and allow the local communities to
focus on their interests more.
I assume that the solution that combines the three answers is that we will
display the local articles whenever available, but be able to take a look
at the article rendered from the abstract version (for contrast and
comparison and maintenance). And if there is no local article, we would
treat the article rendered from the abstract version like a proper article.
So, as said, the actual answer to your question is still work in progress,
but I wanted to write down a first sketch towards the answer. I am also
very happy to hear other people thoughts on this question. But all in all I
think that going toward an Abstract Wikipedia will improve along all the
dimensions discussed. But I am sure I missed important dimensions on this
question.
Cheers,
Denny
On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 11:15 PM Ariel Glenn WMF <ariel(a)wikimedia.org>
wrote:
I want to add a caution about the idea of
translating one article for all
audiences. Even articles on some plants or animals will contain different
information depending on their role in the communities of the speakers
of a
given language; how much more will articles about
some politician or a
religious custom vary depending on the presumed cultural context of the
community of readers? Even sources vary according to the language of the
project, with sources in the project language preferred for ease of
verifiability. One of the strengths of multi-language Wikipedia is this
very concept of a topic being presented in a fashion that is suitable to
different communities of readers, and the language of the text is only
one
part of that.
On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 8:40 AM Leila Zia <leila(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:
Denny, thanks for writing and rewriting this
piece. I finally got a
chance
to go through it end-to-end. Challenge accepted!
:)
Here are a few early thoughts, and I look forward to discussing it with
you
> and others further.
>
> * I tend to agree with you that the challenges of artificial
intelligence
> are a superset of the challenges of bringing
to life the abstract
> Wikipedia. Quite a few items you list in "Unique advantages" section
make
the
abstract-Wikipedia space more easily approachable.
* I agree with you that if we are to take the content of Wikipedia to
many
> of the languages spoken in the world today, and engage their speakers
to
share in,
the current model won't work/scale (at least soon enough).
* You've raised a great point about "Graceful degradation". A very nice
challenge.
* In "Unique advantages" you talk about "a single genre of text,
encyclopedias" and I wonder what it takes to expand our thinking to
include
> images as well. Will we need to rethink your current construct?
Including
images is
attractive for at least two reasons: Because in terms of
learning
> people have different needs and we will likely need to (continue to)
> include images as we create the abstractions, but also because one can
> potentially think of images as representations that are already
abstract.
Best,
Leila
--
Leila Zia
Senior Research Scientist, Lead
Wikimedia Foundation
On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 10:13 AM Dariusz Jemielniak <darekj(a)alk.edu.pl
wrote:
> an interesting concept indeed!
>
> dj
>
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 5:36 PM Denny Vrandečić <vrandecic(a)gmail.com
> <mailto:vrandecic@gmail.com>> wrote:
> The extended whitepaper that was presented at the DL workshop is now
> available here:
>
>
http://simia.net/download/abstractwikipedia_whitepaper.pdf
>
> Still not a proper scientific paper (no references, notv situated in
> related work), but going into a bit more detail on the ideas on the
first
> paper published previously.
>
> On Sat, Sep 29, 2018, 11:32 Denny Vrandečić <vrandecic(a)gmail.com
<mailto:
> vrandecic(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Semantic Web languages allow to express ontologies and knowledge
bases
> in
> > > a way meant to be particularly amenable to the Web. Ontologies
> formalize
> > > the shared understanding of a domain. But the most expressive and
> > > widespread languages that we know of are human natural languages,
and
> the
> > > largest knowledge base we have is the wealth of text written in
human
> >
languages.
> >
> > We looks for a path to bridge the gap between knowledge
representation
> > > languages such as OWL and human natural languages such as English.
We
> > > propose a project to
simultaneously expose that gap, allow to
> collaborate
> > > on closing it, make progress widely visible, and is highly
attractive
and
> > valuable in its own right: a Wikipedia written in an abstract
language
to
> be rendered into any natural language on
request. This would make
current
> > Wikipedia editors about 100x more productive, and increase the
content
of
> > Wikipedia by 10x. For billions of users this will unlock knowledge
they
> > > currently do not have access to.
> > >
> > > My first talk on this topic will be on October 10, 2018,
16:45-17:00,
at
> the Asilomar in Monterey, CA during the Blue
Sky track of ISWC. My
second,
> longer talk on the topic will be at the DL workshop in Tempe, AZ,
October
> > 27-29. Comments are very welcome as I prepare the slides and the
talk.
> > >
> > > Link to the paper:
http://simia.net/download/abstractwikipedia.pdf
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Denny
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >
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> >
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> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org<mailtolto:
> > Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org>
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>
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org<mailto:
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>
>
> --
> ________________________________________________________
> [
http://crow.kozminski.edu.pl/minds.jpg]<
http://nerds.kozminski.edu.pl/>
> > prof. dr hab. Dariusz Jemielniak
> > kierownik katedry MINDS (Management in Networked and Digital
Societies)
> > Akademia Leona Koźmińskiego
> >
http://NeRDS.kozminski.edu.pl <http://nerds.kozminski.edu.pl/>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Ostatnie artykuły:
> >
> > * Dariusz Jemielniak, Maciej Wilamowski (2017) Cultural
Diversity
of
> > Quality of Information on Wikipedias<
> >
http://crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/cultures%20of%20wikipedias.pdf>
> > Journal of the Association for Information Science and Technology 68:
> 10.
> > 2460–2470.
> > * Dariusz Jemielniak (2016) Wikimedia Movement Governance: The
> Limits
> > of A-Hierarchical Organization<
> >
http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/wikimedia_governance.pdf>
> Journal
> > of Organizational Change Management 29: 3. 361-378.
> > * Dariusz Jemielniak, Eduard Aibar (2016) Bridging the Gap
Between
> > Wikipedia and Academia<
> >
http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/bridging.pdf> Journal of the
> > Association for Information Science and Technology 67: 7.
1773-1776.
> *
Dariusz Jemielniak (2016) Breaking the Glass Ceiling on
Wikipedia<
http://www.crow.kozminski.edu.pl/papers/glass-ceiling.pdf> Feminist
Review 113: 1. 103-108.
* Tadeusz Chełkowski, Peter Gloor, Dariusz Jemielniak (2016)
Inequalities in Open Source Software Development: Analysis of
Contributor’s
Commits in Apache Software Foundation
Projects<
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/asset?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.01…
> >,
> > PLoS ONE 11: 4. e0152976.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >
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> >
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