Because they'd be immediately accused of libeling him and it would
turn into a he said/they said.
Also, while I do think the WMF should be in the business of blocking
problem-causing users, it shouldn't be in the business of speaking out
against them publicly.
On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 3:39 PM Benjamin Ikuta <benjaminikuta(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Do you at least believe him when he says he hasn't contacted anyone offwiki, and
everything he was warned about was onwiki?
And if he really is lying, why can't they even say so?
On Jun 28, 2019, at 12:14 PM, Robert Fernandez <wikigamaliel(a)gmail.com> wrote:
> I do.
>
> It just doesn’t make any sense. His account is either wrong or leaving out
> much of the truth.
>
> I have some idea (from unfortunate experience) how long office bans take,
> how much work goes into them, and how many people have to sign off on them.
>
> So we’re either saying one person with a checkered history is lying or a
> large number of professionals lied, conspired, and lashed out.
>
> Occam’s razor.
>
> On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 5:15 AM Benjamin Ikuta <benjaminikuta(a)gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Why do you doubt Fram? What do you think happened? And why can't the WMF
>> say even so much as a, "That's not accurate."?
>>
>> You really think he's just outright lying?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jun 14, 2019, at 4:03 PM, David Gerard <dgerard(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> If you really think Fram's framing of events here is even plausible,
>>> let alone the story, then you're less competent than I have previously
>>> considered you to be.
>>>
>>> On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 18:47, Todd Allen <toddmallen(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>
>>>> According to Fram, the WMF told him his "interaction ban" was
for
>>>> maintenance tagging two articles, yes (and when I looked at the diffs,
>> the
>>>> maintenance tags were accurate and necessary). So, either Fram is lying
>> or
>>>> omitting something (and the WMF, for whatever reason, is not
challenging
>>>> him on it), the WMF lied to Fram, or they did indeed sanction him for
>> what
>>>> they told him they sanctioned him for.
>>>>
>>>> Todd
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2019 at 4:37 AM David Gerard <dgerard(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> and you're *seriously* positing that the WMF would ban an admin
for
>>>>> doing only what you describe?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 14 Jun 2019 at 11:32, Todd Allen
<toddmallen(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The only case of "harassment" apparently cited here
was "I kept
>> writing
>>>>>> garbage articles, and someone kept flagging them as garbage!
>> Harassment!
>>>>>> Bad!"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you don't want your articles to be flagged as garbage,
FIND YOUR
>>>>> SOURCES
>>>>>> PRIOR TO WRITING THEM, AND CITE THEM. That's rather a
requirement
>> anyway.
>>>>>> The editor in question repeatedly failed to do that, repeatedly
had
>> her
>>>>>> articles flagged for failure to do that, and regarded that as
>>>>> "harassment"
>>>>>> rather than her own failure to follow the English
Wikipedia's
>> policies.
>>>>>> Next time, she needs to find the sources first, and write the
article
>>>>> only
>>>>>> after she has them in hand.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Todd
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 10:14 AM Robert Fernandez <
>>>>> wikigamaliel(a)gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If someone is able to harass someone for years and nothing
is done
>> then
>>>>>>> clearly community procedures are not “perfectly adequate”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 13, 2019 at 11:36 AM Fæ <faewik(a)gmail.com>
wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This misses the point, as others have highlighted
already.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The WMF can and /should/ globally and permanently ban
paedophiles,
>>>>>>>> terrorists, system hackers and people making multiple
cross-wiki
>>>>> death
>>>>>>>> threats or threats of suicide. There are perfectly good
and
>>>>>>>> understandable reasons as to why the evidence behind
these attacks
>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> threats would be kept unpublished, it's seriously
personal or
>>>>> criminal
>>>>>>>> stuff.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The WMF making topic bans, interaction bans and limited
project
>>>>>>>> specific bans against Wikipedians is a brand new
invention, which
>>>>> goes
>>>>>>>> against the pre-existing understanding that the WMF do
not replace
>>>>>>>> existing and perfectly adequate community agreed
procedures for
>>>>>>>> banning bad behaviour on our projects. Once full time
WMF employees
>>>>>>>> start doing in parallel what volunteer administrators
already do,
>>>>> then
>>>>>>>> we should question why we do not *pay* volunteers
administrators the
>>>>>>>> same hourly rate and we are likely to see a mass exodus
of
>>>>>>>> administrators. After all, would you, say, deliver the
post for free
>>>>>>>> in your area for fun, but thereby take away decent full
time
>>>>>>>> employment with a guaranteed pension for your local
postie?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If the reason for the WMF stepping in to ban Fram for a
year is
>>>>>>>> because the WMF do not trust Wikipedia administrators or
Wikipedia's
>>>>>>>> Arbcom to take sensible action in harassment cases, then
they should
>>>>>>>> be raising that honestly and openly with Arbcom. If the
English
>>>>>>>> Wikipedia's policies are not fit for purpose, or
implementation of
>>>>>>>> policy is incompetent, we need a much bigger discussion
than whether
>>>>>>>> Fram did something so terrible it cannot be named, but
oddly was not
>>>>>>>> worth a global ban but only the equivalent of a 12 month
block on
>>>>>>>> Wikipedia while they are free to do whatever they feel
like on other
>>>>>>>> Wikimedia projects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Fae
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> faewik(a)gmail.com
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 at 15:35, John Erling Blad
<jeblad(a)gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When you bad mouth other users there should be, and
will be,
>>>>>>>> consequences.
>>>>>>>>> An admin got desysoped and banned after repeated
warnings? So
>>>>> what? The
>>>>>>>>> only ting to be learned is that some people believe
they can do
>>>>>>> whatever
>>>>>>>>> they want and it has no consequences, and other
people goes
>>>>> ballistic
>>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>>>> consequences happen.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would have given desysoped fram and 14 days to
cool off, and if
>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> did
>>>>>>>>> not work out repeated with one month. Banning
someone for one year
>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> like
>>>>>>>>> telling them to leave and don't come back.
Someone at WMF is
>>>>> clearly
>>>>>>>> overly
>>>>>>>>> sensitive, but not reacting would also be wrong.
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
and
>>>>>>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>>>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>>>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
and
>>>>>>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>>>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>>>>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org
>> ?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
and
>>>>>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>>>>
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>> Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>> ,
>>>>>
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>> Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>>>>>
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>> Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> <mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l(a)lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe:
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
<mailto:wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>