Hi Richard,
This is not really an unusual way: in fact, most of our campaigns are locally-based
because of language and culture barriers. While Commons is multilingual, most discussions
(including this one) happen in English, a language most people in the world actually
don't speak.
The heritage lists are also not a 'some degree' dependency but a major one:
organising contest without lists will result in a mess of photos that someone needs to
categorise manually. It's not easy to sort pictures from places you have never seen
with descriptions in a language you don't understand. Thus I can hardly imagine how we
can sustainably organise contests in places where local volunteers don't want to work
on them.
The only international heritage lists that exist are the UNESCO ones. I can imagine a
campaign dedicated to UNESCO world heritage monuments in different countries. We had such
an experience with UNESCO Biosphere Reserves for Wiki Loves Earth, which was moderately
successful (a few hundred uploads and some interesting places that were not pictured
before). It is something that can be attempted, but of course it cannot really replace
Wiki Loves Monuments with its national contests.
Mykola (User:NickK)
Wiki Loves Monuments Ukraine & Wiki Loves Earth international team
21 січня 2024, 20:09:58, від "Pharos" <pharosofalexandria(a)gmail.com>om>:
I think some of the tensions might be reduced if WLM and similar photo drives were in
future structured less around "national" contests, and "national"
teams. This is a somewhat unusual way to organize activities in our movement, and I think
alternatives might be possible, even as we rely to some degree on state heritage lists.
Thanks,
Richard
(User:Pharos)
On Sun, Jan 21, 2024 at 4:50 AM Bodhisattwa <bodhisattwa.rgkmc(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Totally agreed with Alexey. We are not supposed to judge and sanction people based on what
their governments are doing. Our focus should completely remain on how to digitally
preserve built heritage of our regions in a better way, keeping aside geopolitical
conflicts and differences. If we want to drag world politics and play UN here, then the
"international" part of the competition will be gone soon as no country in this
world is a piece of heaven fallen from the sky; geopolitical conflicts are everywhere,
even if they are not visible as wars.
WLM is a collaborative international project and it should welcome any country willing to
document their heritage. There should be no exception!
Regards,
Bodhisattwa
On Sun, Jan 21, 2024, 12:28 Aleksey Chalabyan <xelgen.am(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Dear all,
I wanted to add my 2 cents, since I'll be at another wikimedia call and will miss this
call (or most of it) and since last time I followed principle of least drama.
I am seriously afraid stepping into this territory will open a Pandora's box with
dozens of requests to exclude this or that country, arbitration of those requests etc,
making organisation of WLM, WLE and any other international cooperation much, much less
pleasent and if doable per se. It will fill more like all-against-all UN session or
international court - then a collaborative, friendly place to make a wiki photo contest to
get more free photos of monuments from every corner of the world.
Unfortunately, there are many wars and conflicts, and many cultural genocides. Some get
more media coverage, some less. But there will be a long line of countries to ban if we go
there. And if we do - I personally, will add couple more countries to the top of the list,
with a sound proofs of decades of cultural genocide done by them.
Also there are countries with great track of preserving monuments, even if those are of
another culture/religion, no wars started in centuries, but very poor track record of
human rights in general, and let's say woman and LGBT rights in particular. Are those
countries "good enough to play with us" or not?
How about cases where monuments are preserved but culturally apropriated? How about
millitary suppliers and military allies of countries we'll ban? How about countries
where UNESCO officials were caught bribed by regimes to cover up acts of cultural
genocide? How about UNESCO itself?
How far do we go in our Wiki Loves Justice campaign?
I mention no country name now on purpose, to preserve comfortable collaborative
environment and not make anyone feel like they needs to defend themselves. I believe any
true Wikimedian in good standing should feel safe and comfortable here for our
international cooperation to be possible. Even if their governments and military do
unforgivable and unforgettable crimes - as we speak, or a year, 10 or 100 years ago.
That's not how and where we should punish those governments and regimes. And let's
be frank they won't care. We'd just go far away from our mission and make our
lives worse - less fun and less meaningful, and the only part we'd punish will be
victims on the other side.
P.S. Sorry for long letter, was short on time. (c)
Love and peace,
Aleksey a.k.a Xelgen
2024 թ. հնվ 21, կիր, 5:07 effe iets anders <effeietsanders(a)gmail.com> օգտատերը գրել
է․
Hi Illia,
thanks for letting us know. I understand the constraints you must be dealing with, and I
wish we could have announced this earlier (not limited to your situation - this is
desirable for other reasons too). Please know that it was not our intention to announce it
last minute, but that we realized too late that time was running out for this in the way I
explained. Hopefully we can indeed better meet the timeliness expectations going
forward.
Lodewijk
On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 1:04 PM Ilya Korniyko <intracer(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Lodewijk,
WLM Ukraine's organizing team is interested in this discussion, but it's difficult
to find time for it on such a short notice -- because of the armed conflict most Ukrainian
Wikimedians have to simultaneously fit into their agendas their main work, Wikimedia
volunteering and activities we have to do because of the war. For example, I have an
emergency casualty care training this Sunday, and another team member cannot join because
she goes to a training area for drills on the same day.
We ask that you take these circumstances into consideration and notify us in advance in
the future.
Regards,
Illia
On Wed, Jan 17, 2024 at 2:23 AM effe iets anders <effeietsanders(a)gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,
(with apologies for the delay in sending this announcement)
This email discusses a sensitive topic of armed conflict, and may contain triggers for
some of our community members. While we appreciate your input, please prioritize your own
mental wellbeing and don't feel obligated to respond or participate. I have tried to
frame this as sensitively as possible, but welcome constructive suggestions on how to do
this better off-list.
Summary: On Sunday 21 January (08:00 PST, 16:00 UTC), the international team of Wiki Loves
Monuments will organize an office hour/community conversation on: How should an
international federated photo competition like WLM handle national teams, international
finalists and communication in the case of geopolitical armed conflict. We will announce
the link later, and you can register here:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2023/Office…
Topic: In the past years, our communities have been confronted with the question how to
deal with a number of geopolitical armed conflicts. This question came up in the past
years in a few different ways: whether photos of heritage from certain countries should be
allowed to be represented or compete in international competitions like Wiki Loves
Monuments, whether and how photos of heritage in disputed areas can participate
(especially when that dispute becomes an armed conflict) and there are probably more ways
ahead that various armed conflicts can make an international competition and communication
about the competition complex. There is no question whether human and cultural destruction
is desirable, and every war is likely one too many.
Why now: It is particularly hard to discuss these sensitive topics when they are current:
it is a painful conversation for everyone to have, especially because the people who are
living through the real-life consequences are given an additional burden of engaging in
these discussions, under the pressure of time.
For this reason I believe it would be helpful to discuss this topic without focusing on a
specific conflict - but rather to discuss principles. How would we, generally speaking,
international competitions such as Wiki Loves Monuments like to be influenced by armed
conflict? Are there guidelines that they could maintain? At this point, we don't know
who the winners of Wiki Loves Monuments are, and we can still have an abstract
conversation. I don't expect this conversation to conclude right away, but hope that
we can continue it in a few months after the dust of the winning images has settled.
While this is already very soon, we have settled on Sunday 21 January, 16:00 UTC to avoid
getting too close to the announcement of international winners.
Framing: Some questions that come to mind as useful conversation starters would include:
* Under what conditions could or should a national team be disqualified from participating
in an international federated activity such as WLM?
* If yes, who should make the decision whether to disqualify, and using what criteria? Who
should they consult?
* Under what conditions could or should the national submissions be disqualified, if a
national competition already has taken place?
* Should the international team make efforts to not appear to support an armed conflict
when communicating about the competition, or even previous events? What are some
guidelines that they could follow?
I would invite others to contribute in framing a constructive conversation (publicly or
privately - when in doubt, just email me privately).
Conversation timeline: We want this to be the start of a constructive community
conversation with national organizers, international organizers and other community
members who feel they can constructively contribute. We welcome contributions from
organizers of other similar international competitions/activities. The conversation will
be in English but if there is sufficient interest, we can see if we can organize
translation resources in future conversations. You can sign up here:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2023/Office… . Please
do sign up, in case we have to share the link privately.
As mentioned, I don't expect this conversation to be "one and done".
It's a first step, and I expect to follow up with a next conversation in a few months,
and again around Wikimania - if there is sufficient interest.
I will guide this conversation as a former WLM international team member and a current
advisor.
Warmly,
Lodewijk
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