Speaking as one of the several remote employees
on the E2 team, I would
suggest taking that sharing list in reverse order :).
On 29 March 2013 23:31, Vibha Bamba <vbamba(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:
I will also share these in the team meeting and
then we can discuss the
conclusion and I will post a PDF on Mediawiki.
Thanks
Vibha
On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 4:31 PM, Vibha Bamba <vbamba(a)wikimedia.org>wrote;wrote:
> I have two prototypes to share that will help solve this problem that
> I can share on monday at my desk.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 2:59 PM, Benny Situ <bsitu(a)wikimedia.org>wrote;wrote:
>
>> I did not go through every thread in this conversation, what problem
>> is 'clear/go away' trying to solve? Is it because the notification
topic
>> is not interesting to the user or is it because it disturbs the user view
>> in the flyout? 'clearing' existing ones doesn't prevent new ones
from
>> coming in. Or is it just because we want to provide more UI control to end
>> users?
>>
>> I receive emails from amazon regularly and I would view them
>> occasionally to see what's on sale , I would never check/delete them
>> because I know that new emails will push them out of the first page. If I
>> am getting sick of receiving such email I would just unsubscribe. I am not
>> sure about implementing such function, I think it totally depends on
>> personal preference ( in such case, majority rules, :) ).
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 1:33 PM, Luke Welling WMF <
>> lwelling(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I generally like the feature in its current form.
>>>
>>> It's not exactly how I'd have specified it. I think consistency in
>>> UX is vital so if it were just up to me, I would not have different
>>> handling for talk and system notifications. But that's a relatively
minor
>>> issue.
>>>
>>> The big question I'd ask now is "Is there a realistic chance that
>>> we'll add fine grained control in V1.1?"
>>>
>>> If there is, then type based disabling is dangerous. It limits what
>>> we can turn on later. For example, if somebody has turned off all page link
>>> notifications because they were getting dozens for a single uninteresting
>>> page they created, and we later add per page disabling of that type, we
>>> can't reasonably turn it back on for that user. Undoing their manual
>>> preference settings would be obnoxious. We've lost them from that
feature
>>> forever even if we improve it.
>>>
>>> Luke
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Vibha Bamba
<vbamba(a)wikimedia.org>wrote;wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ryan, can you request you to comment on tech feasibility analysis
>>>> for 2 things:
>>>>
>>>> -A simple 'Go away/Remove this notification'
>>>> -And a 'Clear All' for visible notifications in the flyout?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 1:25 PM, Oliver Keyes <okeyes(a)wikimedia.org
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> That's an argument for 'they might not find the feature as
>>>>> useful'. Will they be directly inconvenienced by the feature? Not
that I
>>>>> can see. But since we're in agreement that, well, we're not
in agreement,
>>>>> it's probably worth mooting this conversation until there comes a
time when
>>>>> we have more evidence on how things work in practise, or other people
want
>>>>> to take up the baton.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 27 March 2013 20:23, Vibha Bamba <vbamba(a)wikimedia.org>
wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Right. So I agree we need solutions that will work across a
>>>>>> spectrum of engagement levels.
>>>>>> But turning categories off also doesn't work for new users,
*their
>>>>>> volume and velocity of notifications* is much smaller than the
>>>>>> power user.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 1:19 PM, Oliver Keyes <
>>>>>> okeyes(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am certainly talking about the power user; my point is that
we
>>>>>>> *do* have use cases here :). I strongly agree that new users
>>>>>>> are unlikely to create a volume of edits or articles in a
single go, but
>>>>>>> given that our job with EE is to turn them *into* power
users,
>>>>>>> and being able to create mechanisms to do this requires some
kind of
>>>>>>> community acceptance, it seems illogical to make product
decisions based on
>>>>>>> the short-term. I'm happy to wait until we have
*more*evidence, and other people are convinced this might be worth looking into,
>>>>>>> but "I think you may be talking about the power user
here" is never a valid
>>>>>>> argument for a feature that hits non-newcomers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 27 March 2013 20:02, Vibha Bamba
<vbamba(a)wikimedia.org>wrote;wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Oliver, I think you may be talking about the power user
here:
>>>>>>>> New users are unlikely to create a volume of edits or
articles
>>>>>>>> in a single go.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Certain categories *cannot *be switched off:
>>>>>>>> -Systme Messages
>>>>>>>> -Talk Page messages
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You bring up a very valid case, but I doubt that the
solution
>>>>>>>> is turning entire categories off from the flyout.
>>>>>>>> If it is spam for power users, they can turn things off
in
>>>>>>>> Preferences.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Facebook provides a very sophisticated level of control
in the
>>>>>>>> flyouts by letting you mute :
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -Notification from User X (*Not* all talk messages)
>>>>>>>> -Notifications about Event X (*Not* all events)
>>>>>>>> -Notifications from X wall Post (Not all your wall posts,
just
>>>>>>>> this specific one)
>>>>>>>> -Notifications from the status you posted (Not your
entire wall)
>>>>>>>> -Notifications for a language from a service (Not even
the
>>>>>>>> entire app in all cases)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is the level of control we may need for some
categories,
>>>>>>>> but it needs more thinking,
>>>>>>>> I dont think we are there yet.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Oliver Keyes <
>>>>>>>> okeyes(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As someone who has spent time directly observing
user
>>>>>>>>> behaviour for many years - we have lots and lots of
evidence. For example;
>>>>>>>>> are you aware that users semi-automatically and/or
rapidly create articles?
>>>>>>>>> Usually translated from other projects. I sincerely
doubt that they will
>>>>>>>>> want a notification every time.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 27 March 2013 19:32, Vibha Bamba
<vbamba(a)wikimedia.org>wrote;wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> To clarify:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 1) The safest thing that allows to build
incrementally for
>>>>>>>>>> now is 'Ive read this > Remove it'
which is a really a simple
>>>>>>>>>> *'Go Away'*
>>>>>>>>>> 2 ) In addition to this we could support a*
'Clear All Read'*from the flyout so a user doesn't have to dismiss one at a
time.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This still leaves us with the problem of cross
linking
>>>>>>>>>> notification which may be large in volume > we
could make that an
>>>>>>>>>> *'Opt In'*
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The reason I think turning off categories in the
flyout is
>>>>>>>>>> problematic is:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 1. Dismissing entire categories needs more
fine tuning.
>>>>>>>>>> Users will want to unfollow specific things
> Articles > Discussions etc.
>>>>>>>>>> 2. Switching off categories also prevents us
from
>>>>>>>>>> incremental fine tune controls in the short
term.
>>>>>>>>>> 3. Other than cross links, so far we dont have
enough
>>>>>>>>>> evidence that users will want to switch entire
categories off. We need more
>>>>>>>>>> time and back end support to figure that out.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 12:23 PM, Vibha Bamba
<
>>>>>>>>>> vbamba(a)wikimedia.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I propose:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> 1) The safest thing that allows to build
incrementally for
>>>>>>>>>>> now is 'Ive read this > Remove
it'
>>>>>>>>>>> 2 ) In addition to this we could support a
clear all new
>>>>>>>>>>> from the flyout so a user doesn't have to
dismiss one at a time.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This still leaves us with the problem of
cross linking
>>>>>>>>>>> notification which may be large in volume
> we could make that an 'opt in'
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Dismissing entire categories needs more fine
tuning.
>>>>>>>>>>> Other than cross links, so far we dont have
enough evidence
>>>>>>>>>>> that users will want to switch entire
categories off.
>>>>>>>>>>> Users will want to unfollow specific things
> Articles >
>>>>>>>>>>> Discussions etc.
>>>>>>>>>>> We need more time and back end support to
figure that out.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 12:17 PM, Isarra Yos
<
>>>>>>>>>>> zhorishna(a)gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But having the option there at all, if
its to be removed
>>>>>>>>>>>> later for simplicity, could even cause
problems - how quickly would users
>>>>>>>>>>>> figure out that they dont want a kind of
message? On the first one, it
>>>>>>>>>>>> probably wont seem worth dismissing all
of the type - might be interesting
>>>>>>>>>>>> to get more. But once they get twenty in
the next day, then it would
>>>>>>>>>>>> probably sink in that okay, this is
really annoying. But where did the
>>>>>>>>>>>> option go? Wasnt there an option?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> If anything it might lead them away from
their preferences
>>>>>>>>>>>> because their preferences are not where
they saw the option initially.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/03/2013 13:11, Matthew Flaschen
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 03/27/2013 03:09 PM, Isarra Yos
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps Im misunderstanding
something, but if someone is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trying to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dismiss several, they wont want a
dialog showing up every
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time, but at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same time even if they dont
want to disable all of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the type the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first time that doesnt mean they
wont want to do that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> later. The option,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> if its going to be there, needs
to be there somewhat
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consistently.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You can still disable the
notification category in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Special:Preferences .
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It may be worthwhile to keep the
main Echo interface
>>>>>>>>>>>>> (not preferences)
>>>>>>>>>>>>> simpler if they choose not to disable
the category the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> first time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Matt Flaschen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>> EE mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>>> EE(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/ee<https://lists.wikimedi…
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> -— Isarra
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
______________________________**_________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> EE mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> EE(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>>>>>>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/**mailman/listinfo/ee<https://lists.wikimedi…
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> EE mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> EE(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>>>>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Oliver Keyes
>>>>>>>>> Community Liaison, Product Development
>>>>>>>>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> EE mailing list
>>>>>>>>> EE(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>>>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> EE mailing list
>>>>>>>> EE(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Oliver Keyes
>>>>>>> Community Liaison, Product Development
>>>>>>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> EE mailing list
>>>>>>> EE(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> EE mailing list
>>>>>> EE(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Oliver Keyes
>>>>> Community Liaison, Product Development
>>>>> Wikimedia Foundation
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> EE mailing list
>>>>> EE(a)lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/ee
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> EE mailing list
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
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--
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Community Liaison, Product Development
Wikimedia Foundation
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