[Wikiversity-l] Wikiversity-l Digest, Vol 14, Issue 3

Mon Dec 10 01:15:45 UTC 2007

Please unsubscribe.  I have tried several times. Thanks.  Sarah
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Subject: Wikiversity-l Digest, Vol 14, Issue 3


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> Today's Topics:
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>   1. (no subject) (Ming Yu)
>   2. Re: Moodle and software support for Wikiversity
>      (Brian Salter-Duke)
>   3. Re: Moodle and software support for Wikiversity
>      ( Juan de Vojn?kov )
>   4. Re: Moodle and software support for Wikiversity (Pedro Sanchez)
>   5. Re: Moodle and software support for Wikiversity
>      (draicone at gmail.com)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
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> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 09:18:29 -0800 (PST)
> From: Ming Yu <yuming at sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: [Wikiversity-l] (no subject)
> To: wikiversity-l at lists.wikimedia.org
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> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 08:05:54 +1100
> From: Brian Salter-Duke <b_duke at bigpond.net.au>
> Subject: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Moodle and software support for
> Wikiversity
> To: wikiversity-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> Message-ID: <20071209210554.GC1272 at SALTERDUKE2>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> On Sun, Dec 09, 2007 at 05:51:44PM +1000, draicone at gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>    On Dec 9, 2007 3:17 PM, Gerald A <[1]geraldablists at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>      I think we would like to try out an array of learning
>>      techniques.Moodle would be a
>>      fantastic learning project -- I'm not sure if it could be done on
>>      this level (admin wise),
>>      but I'm sure at least of few WVers would poke around with it to see
>>      what it does.
>>      I'm not sure if there is a list of web-type software that might be
>>      interesting to evaluate,
>>      but perhaps we could create one. It might take some time to work
>>      through such a list,
>>      but the benefits if we find something with traction might
>>      definitely be worth it.
>>
>>    Now that we've got the Sandbox Server running, I can give any of the
>>    techie custodians access to the server and we can experiment with
>>    different systems, useful mini-apps etc. We can start with a trial
>>    Moodle installation -- we've already got a sample MediaWiki
>>    installation up there.
>>    Regarding a list, head to [2]http://www.opensourcecms.com/ and try the
>>    "e-Learning" section.
>
> For the web based teaching materials that I have been involved in and
> which I am planning to install on wikiversity, I need two things that
> are not currently present. The materials are graduate level (plus some
> undergraduate use) computational chemistry. There are already some
> straight text materials in this area on WV and they would nicely merge
> in with my materials. The two things that are missing are:-
>
> 1. The ability to display molecular models that can be manipulated by the
> reader. This function is available in an open source application called
> Jmol. A php extension is available to run in mediawiki and Jmol does run
> on, for example, the Jmol Wiki. I have tried to get this added to
> Wikipedia, where of course it would also be useful, but the technical
> folks, think the php is not sufficiently free of security concerns. I do
> not know php but I am trying to get this issue solved. Unfortunately the
> author of the Jmol php extension is too busy to do this.
>
> 2. The real innovation of our materials is that they allow the user to
> prepare data for a variety of different computational chemistry programs
> and then run the data, either directly in real time, getting the results
> back on a web page, or by queueing the job if it is larger and getting
> the results back later on a web page or by e-mail. Our materials use a
> variety of quite complex CGI scripts that handle the materials from html
> forms and menus and then run the code. While queueing the jobs is
> necessary in some cases, this is really only to restrict access to the
> disk for storing large temporary files. The CGI scripts prevent the user
> from entering large jobs. In this context "large job" equates to "large
> molecule" with the cpu time rising with some some power of the molecular
> size. For teaching, small molecules only are needed and these take little
> time. When a job is queued, for example, it leaves a URL link on the
> page returned by the CGI script. The user can keep clicking on it until
> it returns more than a header saying try again later.
>
> While currently we use both open source and commercial codes, the
> commercial codes can be replaced by open source ones by writing a few
> more CGI scripts.
>
> This use clearly needs a server that can run these CGI scripts and the
> programs they call. It does not have to be the server that handles the
> forms page. For a while we ran one application 3000 km away from the
> main server.
>
> I have no idea what the equivalent to CGI scripts is within mediawiki
> and how we can run forms (the quiz extension may be a start here), but
> I'm willing to learn. Whether this is feasable, I do not really know.
> However, I think that what I am suggesting could have wider use.
> Wikiversity needs to have pages that are dynamic in ways that wikipedia
> does not need. Web based learning has to be more than reading text and
> looking at pictures on a computer screen. I think this is the greatest
> challenge for the technical people on wikiversity.
>
> There has been a suggestion that these kinds of computer calculations
> can be handled by distributed computing using users own PCs, rather like
> the SETI project. These could be usefull for very large jobs in some
> cases on WV, but I do not think they are suitable for my applications
> where we just need a few seconds (maybe up to 100 secs) on a linux
> machine. Most of the codes we use are unix based. Distributing computing
> is not required and it would delay getting the response to the learner.
>
> I would welcome suggestions for dealing with this.
>
> Brian.
>
>> References
>>
>>    1. mailto:geraldablists at gmail.com
>>    2. http://www.opensourcecms.com/
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikiversity-l mailing list
>> Wikiversity-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l
>
>
> -- 
>          Brian Salter-Duke            b_duke at bigpond.net.au
>               [[User:Bduke]]  mainly on en:Wikipedia.
>           Also on fr: Wikipedia, Meta-Wiki and Wikiversity
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 00:36:58 +0100
> From: " Juan de Vojn?kov " <juandevojnikov at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Moodle and software support for
> Wikiversity
> To: "Mailing list for Wikiversity" <wikiversity-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <e01be9300712091536w440fa5afo84c8c4413e584cc9 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Well, I think it is a good idea that the participants and people around 
> Sand
> Box server will test Moodle. Try also these:
> *http://www.atutor.ca
> *http://www.claroline.net
> *http://www.laex.org/class/
> *http://www.docebo.org
> *http://www.dokeos.com
> *http://www.interactlms.org
> *http://www.moodle.org
> *http://siteatschool.sourceforge.net
>
> However I shoud staid that I am coudnt imagine a situation to swich
> Mediawiki with Moodle for the future. If Id like to work under Moodle, I 
> can
> go ther right now.
>
> Juan
>
>
> 2007/12/9, draicone at gmail.com <draicone at gmail.com>:
>>
>> On Dec 9, 2007 5:19 AM, John Schmidt <johnwschmidt at excite.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > From Peter van Londen:
>> > >is MediaWiki the best way to
>> > >work with Wikiversity or might Moodle be a better choice?
>> >
>> > MediaWiki is our starting point. Some of us have been trying to get a
>> > Wikiversity "sandbox server" where we can experiment with additional
>> > software. Maybe someday.....
>> >
>> > -John Schmidt
>>
>>
>> Would you like a test Moodle installation on the Sandbox Server?
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikiversity-l mailing list
>> Wikiversity-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>> http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiversity-l
>>
>>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 17:47:28 -0600
> From: "Pedro Sanchez" <pdsanchez at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Moodle and software support for
> Wikiversity
> To: "Mailing list for Wikiversity" <wikiversity-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <9ac45b70712091547g2d983b85q6e68d4664ce707e8 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Dec 9, 2007 5:36 PM, Juan de Vojn?kov <juandevojnikov at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Well, I think it is a good idea that the participants and people around 
>> Sand
>> Box server will test Moodle. Try also these:
> ...
>
> Well, perhaps it will be time again to ask for something much simpler.
> Mathematics. Geogebra. Open source. Java.   www.geogebra.org
>
> that's be much helpful building content on elementary mathematics,
> part of the reasons I haven't got into wikiversity, is taht current
> caabilities don't allow much more than what's spread in other servers
> (passive text)
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 10:53:15 +1000
> From: "draicone at gmail.com" <draicone at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Wikiversity-l] Moodle and software support for
> Wikiversity
> To: wikiversity-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> Message-ID:
> <913fe40a0712091653j24d55a0ek2c0538be31ea9bfc at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> On Dec 10, 2007 7:05 AM, Brian Salter-Duke <b_duke at bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
>> 1. The ability to display molecular models that can be manipulated by the
>> reader. This function is available in an open source application called
>> Jmol. A php extension is available to run in mediawiki and Jmol does run
>> on, for example, the Jmol Wiki. I have tried to get this added to
>> Wikipedia, where of course it would also be useful, but the technical
>> folks, think the php is not sufficiently free of security concerns. I do
>> not know php but I am trying to get this issue solved. Unfortunately the
>> author of the Jmol php extension is too busy to do this.
>>
>
> If you can provide us with further details, I can get it started on the
> sandbox wiki we have running on the server.
>
>
>> 2. The real innovation of our materials is that they allow the user to
>> prepare data for a variety of different computational chemistry programs
>> and then run the data, either directly in real time, getting the results
>> back on a web page, or by queueing the job if it is larger and getting
>> the results back later on a web page or by e-mail. Our materials use a
>> variety of quite complex CGI scripts that handle the materials from html
>> forms and menus and then run the code. While queueing the jobs is
>> necessary in some cases, this is really only to restrict access to the
>> disk for storing large temporary files. The CGI scripts prevent the user
>> from entering large jobs. In this context "large job" equates to "large
>> molecule" with the cpu time rising with some some power of the molecular
>> size. For teaching, small molecules only are needed and these take little
>> time. When a job is queued, for example, it leaves a URL link on the
>> page returned by the CGI script. The user can keep clicking on it until
>> it returns more than a header saying try again later.
>>
>> While currently we use both open source and commercial codes, the
>> commercial codes can be replaced by open source ones by writing a few
>> more CGI scripts.
>>
>> This use clearly needs a server that can run these CGI scripts and the
>> programs they call. It does not have to be the server that handles the
>> forms page. For a while we ran one application 3000 km away from the
>> main server.
>>
>
> I've got a 40kg server with triple power supplies, dual CPUs, triple hard
> drives and dual ear muffs to be able to hear with it all that we might be
> able to use :) Let me know if this sounds okay and I'll get a flavor of
> Linux up and running on it.
>
>
>> I have no idea what the equivalent to CGI scripts is within mediawiki
>> and how we can run forms (the quiz extension may be a start here), but
>> I'm willing to learn. Whether this is feasable, I do not really know.
>> However, I think that what I am suggesting could have wider use.
>> Wikiversity needs to have pages that are dynamic in ways that wikipedia
>> does not need. Web based learning has to be more than reading text and
>> looking at pictures on a computer screen. I think this is the greatest
>> challenge for the technical people on wikiversity.
>>
>
> One of the main purposes of the sandbox server was to allow us to break 
> out
> of the restrictions of MediaWiki. Forms in PHP are dead easy. Even if you
> don't have a programming background you could learn in half an hour.
> MediaWiki can have forms, but it requires some highly complex code and a 
> few
> hacks here and there. We would be developing real applications to 
> facilitate
> our learning systems, as opposed to this reliance on MediaWiki for what
> clearly warrants a dedicated application.
>
>
>> There has been a suggestion that these kinds of computer calculations
>> can be handled by distributed computing using users own PCs, rather like
>> the SETI project. These could be usefull for very large jobs in some
>> cases on WV, but I do not think they are suitable for my applications
>> where we just need a few seconds (maybe up to 100 secs) on a linux
>> machine. Most of the codes we use are unix based. Distributing computing
>> is not required and it would delay getting the response to the learner.
>>
>
> If it's a few seconds of calculations, why do we need a computer to do it 
> in
> the first place? Can't students run the algorithms on their own machines? 
> In
> any case, for a few seconds of calculation the overhead of a distributed
> task system like SETI is totally out of the question, a server would be
> best.
>
>
>> I would welcome suggestions for dealing with this.
>>
>> Brian.
>
>
> Let me know what you think of these.
>
> Draicone
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