[Wikipedia-l] About creating a new language on Wikipedia

[Ray Saintonge]

Berto 'd Sera wrote:

>Ray,
>
>Pls explain what language is missing the concept of "change" (edit), "move",
>"discuss", nickname, etc. 
>
I can't do much of that getting into a lot of research.  The Russian 
system of nicknames and patronymics can be very complicated for one that 
is unfamiliar with the culture.  The idea of changing things by edit 
makes no sense in a culture that is completely oral.

>Calling "genocide" what you do would perfectly qualify for the forced
>education in Italian imposed after the Italian Unification. Children were
>beaten and publicly humiliated for generations, just for having said a "word
>in dialect". Some 20 years ago I saw the last case of a piedmontese family
>being taken away the custody of their daughter because "they could not even
>speak Italian".
>
>Yet, calling this "holocaust" seems quite a strong terminology to me. While
>I agree that we were object of cultural deletion I cannot say that we were
>physically mass slaughtered or gassed, as it happened in the Holocaust.
>
I didn't use the word "holocaust".  "Genocide" ned not imply the 
physical killing  of the target culture.  Cultural genocide is achieved 
when the exercise of a culture is no longer functional.

>There was an deliberate plan to delete us all as a culture, this much is
>true and must be documented. Besides, it's mostly still happening. Let alone
>Italy, there are extremely worrying things happening in France, where recent
>studies implies that people "exposed to regional languages in their youth"
>become socially lesser. This is nazi POV, although I doubt they fully grasp
>the implications of what they say.
>(http://www.europe1.fr/informations/articles/714735/les-illettres-ne-sont-pa
>s-ceux-qu-on-croit.html ). To make things even sadder the UNESCO
>"International Mother Language Day" this year was held in Paris. Apparently
>some French officers are unaware of what UNESCO is :)
>
My impression is that nobody in Europe likes the gypsies.

>For most people belonging in majorities, minorities are simply "weird
>people" who must be "corrected". They actually feel they are helping you,
>which makes things pretty cruel, but I'd say it excludes a comparison to
>genocide in principle. 
>
Genocide doesn't need to be malicious.

>BTW, the same behavior applies to left-handed vs
>right-handed people (I was born left-handed and personally experienced the
>joy of being "educated" to "do it RIGHT", and yes, I still "do it WRONG" any
>time I can :p ). 
>
My son is left-handed, and has not run into these problems.  The 
educational system here hasn't tried to change people here for a long 
time.  A left-footed person can be an advantage on the left side of a 
football field.  Most often he would end up on left defence.

>It's really a matter of defending your own rights without getting to
>hysterics. Whether we like it or not, minorities will remain minorities
>anyway, and they can only loose in direct brute force confrontation. So take
>a stand, defend the rights and NEVER get to compromise on that, but pls
>let's avoid a terminology that can only generate further lost conflicts. We
>need rights NOW, not a formal recognition about past mischief while the
>current mischief keeps going.
>
Defending rights and needing rights are a different matter from using 
them.  If, for example, the government permits you to teach your 
language in the public schools and even pays the salary for the needed 
teachers, it will still be up to you to find the teachers.

>It's mostly a matter of learning how to market minorities to a wider
>audience, and make them recognized for what they are: one culture as another
>(with robbers, idiots, saints and lots of ordinary people as anybody else).
>Pride is important, but hatred won't do any good.
>
Why market to a wider audience when it's not the culture of that wider 
audience?  Even when one wants to encourage a tourism industry it 
becomes somewhat voyeuristic.  The past history helps us to understand 
the nature of the current problem, but it cannot be changed.

>>The pride and positive self-perception cannot be supplied by outsiders.  
>>For the successful native populations in North America cultural revival 
>>has needed to be accompanied by economic opportunity within their own 
>>territories.
>>    
>>
>I can only agree in full. I won't rewrite what I already wrote in full, so I
>can only invite you to read this:
>http://eng.i-iter.org/project-presentations-0 and especially this:
>http://eng.i-iter.org/quest-effective-policy-0 
>
>It's not a WMF project and it cannot be, since while being 100% no-profit it
>involves commercial activities, but it moves exactly in that direction.
>
I think that the weakness in that argument lies in building expectations 
that the written material can be sold.  That is something that would 
need to be marketted to a wider audience that already has access to more 
than it can handle. 

I do agree that making yet another series of political claims will get 
nowhere.  It takes considerable skill to write effective political 
commentary; most of what I see is just too whiny.

>>It says something about governments when they put such facilities in the 
>>capital instead of the indigenous territory where it would involve more 
>>people.  If the most capable individuals among the Veps are being 
>>marinaded in the culture of the capital they may no longer be useful to 
>>their own people.
>>    
>>
>Maybe... only no such a place as "native Veps place" exists anymore, they
>are all mixed among other nationalities and always in a minority position
>(Karelians enjoy a much better survival chance, because they live in compact
>groups and it was possible to open schools in Karelian).
>
I was not aware of that.  Their struggle will not be an easy one.

>Besides, in a society whose main values are "living in Moscow" and "making
>lotsa bucks", I would have expected more people to use a facility that was
>opening them an easy road to a diplomatic career and to a "rich life
>abroad". Yet, it did not happen. It's matter for reflection, indeed. Since
>we deal with very small entities you might be interested to know that the
>last pagan community in Europe is based in Yoshkar Ola (Russia) and it's
>close to extinction, too. In their case the behavior of the Russian
>Authorities seems to have been quite aggressive, but the results are
>substantially the same. Governments, although sometimes very unpleasant in
>their stance, seems to be mostly non influent on these dynamics, when it
>comes to final results. So possibly the one and only answer is in the native
>community itself, as you suggested.
>
This is not to say that when they go to Moscow they become fanatic 
supporters of Russian culture.  Because of the easy availability of 
other cultural attractions they tend not to have the time to do the 
extra work needed to maintain the minority culture.

>>A lot of these documents could fit into the 
>>mandate of Wikisource.  
>>    
>>
>We are already exploring that possibility. Yet it would take some
>commons.wikisource, with individual page language tags, so that admin work
>is shared and kept to an absolute minimum. 
>
Spend more time on the contents, and less on the packaging.

>>Outsiders can provide the means in the form of such things as hardware, 
>>but they need to avoid introducing their expectations, and the 
>>presumptions that they take for granted.
>>    
>>
>This is obviously a respectable POV, but when you have small resources you
>need help, and help is better found from a neutral party. UNESCO seems the
>only neutral party available. 
>
>I understand the "leave me alone" stance, as it's quite natural for cultures
>that have long being offended. But if you take that stance... then why
>should WMF be any better than UNESCO? It's filled up with yanks, after all
>:) Anyway, all tribes make their own decisions in full freedom, as it must
>be :)
>
I admit ignorance of what UNESCO is offering.

I'm not suggesting an isolationist "leave me alone" stance.  What I'm 
saying is that you need to take the initiative because nobody else can 
do it.

Ec