[Wikipedia-l] Wikipedia-l Digest, Vol 45, Issue 21

Thu Apr 26 21:27:36 UTC 2007

Por favor mandenme los email en español.
Gracias.

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>To: wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>Subject: Wikipedia-l Digest, Vol 45, Issue 21
>Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 08:01:21 +0000
>
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>Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: New Wikipedia in " Romanesco " (David Gerard)
>    2. Re: Deletions, speedy deletions... and retributions...
>       (David Goodman)
>    3. Re: Deletions, speedy deletions... and retributions...
>       (Ronald Chmara)
>    4. Re: Deletions, speedy deletions... and retributions...
>       (Frederick Noronha)
>    5. Re: Deletions, speedy deletions... and retributions...
>       (Till Westermayer)
>    6. Re: New Wikipedia in " Romanesco " (Berto 'd Sera)
>    7. Re: Deletions, speedy deletions... and retributions...
>       (Ronald Chmara)
>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 23:06:57 +0100
>From: "David Gerard" <dgerard at gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] New Wikipedia in " Romanesco "
>To: wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>Message-ID:
>	<fbad4e140704251506v7a220c65o8e1f80771f3a32fb at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>On 25/04/07, GerardM <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Read the policy.
>
>
>And one day you will learn that when people question the policy,
>answering "Read the policy" only makes them angrier.
>
>
>- d.
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 2
>Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 20:07:14 -0400
>From: "David Goodman" <dgoodmanny at gmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Deletions, speedy deletions... and
>	retributions...
>To: wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>Message-ID:
>	<480eb3150704251707n128194ffm7ac0469bf8523d8c at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>One Way to help:
>
>One good way that groups (and individuals)  in the third world (and
>anywhere else) can help wikipedia retain and add to the articles on
>their work is to state explicitly on their web  sites that the pages
>are licensed GFDL (or just public domain). At least the text, and if
>possible the images.  Very often this is the main source for an
>article, and article are often deleted for contain too much copied
>text. Many pages and especially images in Europe and elsewhere are
>licensed for nonprofit use only, and this does not meet the
>requirements of en WP.
>
>There is of course the mechanism to request permission, but it is
>usual for organizations and webmasters not to react fast enough.
>
>Many of the eds. at WP can & will quickly take such information and
>adapt and reduce it to a good article--it takes much longer to rewrite
>from scratch. I personally try to rewrite one such article a week, but
>if I could use blocks of web text and photos when appropriate  I could
>do two or three.
>
>On 4/25/07, Frederick Noronha <fred at bytesforall.org> wrote:
> > Dear all,
> >
>...
> > The speedy deletions of pages of organisations
> > whose work is widely noticed and is certainly relevant to the Third
> > World (or the so-called "developing world") is unfair.
>...
> >  Special care needs to be taken about groups working in non-English
> > languages and those on the so-called "periphery" (i.e. not in the "big
> > cities that matter" or the bigger nations that have so many of their
> > denizens active in cyberspace). Many such groups might not be visible
> > enough in cyberspace, but that hardly means their work is not
> > relevant!
> >
>...
> > Frederick "FN" Noronha
> > Goa, India.
>
> > ----
>David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S.
>DGG
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 3
>Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 22:22:56 -0700
>From: Ronald Chmara <ron at Opus1.COM>
>Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Deletions, speedy deletions... and
>	retributions...
>To: wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>Message-ID: <503A8207-E736-49C9-807E-B728E05F2D76 at opus1.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
>On Apr 25, 2007, at 2:56 PM, Till Westermayer wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> > I have removed the proposed-for-deletion tag -- I guess it is a
> > borderline case
>
>Borderline? Hm... It's WP:COI, the only published "sources" are not
>only self generated (WP:SPS), they're also blogs loaded with viagra
>SPAM and forum sites... this is the very reason *why* we have so many
>guidelines on en, lest folks think that they can just throw up some
>content and therefore  deserve their own wikipedia entry. AfD'ing
>this and any siblings.
>
> > Frederick Noronha schrieb am 25.04.2007 21:44:
> >> Dear all,
> >> It appears that my persistent questioning of the decisions to delete
> >> pages related to some networks doing significant work, but which
> >> might
> >> not be sufficiently visible in cyberspace (or the English-dominated
> >> sections of it) seems to have led someone to decide to delete a page
> >> referring to me at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Noronha !
> >> The grounds given are "borderline notability".  Not that this
> >> matters....
> >> It's amusing to see oneself being shifted from being a "notable
> >> Wikipedian" to "borderline notability" over a short period of time.
> >> See http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?
> >> title=Frederick_Noronha&diff=124590095&oldid=23812169
>
>Notable wikipedian does not mean notable to the world. http://
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:BIO#Articles_on_Wikipedians
>
> >> I would still maintain that those deleting pages need to act with
> >> responsibility. Besides, the success of Wikipedia (as the 11th
> >> most-visited site in the world, according to alexa.com) should not
> >> lead to arrogance or unhelpfulness that discourages those attempting
> >> to get heard in cyberspace
>
>Write a blog? WIkipedia is not a place to *establish* notability,
>it's a place to document things once notability is established.
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:NOT#SOAP
>
> >>  (As one editor
> >> once told me, good naturedly, "If I want to give you a reason to
> >> block
> >> your article, I could give you any one of 31 good reasons for it."
> >> Yeah, reasons are easy to come by, once someone's mind is made up.)
>
>Experienced editors may already be quite familiar with the criteria.
>So far, I've counted: VAIN/COI, CORP/ORG, SPS, V. It might or might
>not be SNOW, I'll leave that to others to decide. :)
>
> >> * ..The speedy deletions of pages of organisations
> >> whose work is widely noticed and is certainly relevant to the Third
> >> World (or the so-called "developing world") is unfair.
>
>If it's widely noticed, it will be documented, and thus pass WP:V
>
> >> * There should be good reason for deletion of any page (this should
> >> not be taken to mean that I'm making even an indirect case for my
> >> page.
>
>AfD requires reasons, and consensus.
>
> >> *  Many such groups might not be visible
> >> enough in cyberspace, but that hardly means their work is not
> >> relevant!
>
>...If it's widely noticed, it will be documented, and thus pass
>WP:V... Same answer to all your other questions. You are about to see
>how the process works. :)
>
>-Bop
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 4
>Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:30:53 +0530
>From: "Frederick Noronha" <fred at bytesforall.org>
>Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Deletions, speedy deletions... and
>	retributions...
>To: wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>Message-ID:
>	<8ea78e010704252300k45e96c3fqf6b4cf747263d309 at mail.gmail.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>Hi all: Please don't discuss me or the page referring to me on
>Wikipedia. I have no delusions of grandeur, didn't initiate the page
>myself (just felt the need to correct the info which was incorrect on
>it, after waiting awhile and seeing nothing change!), and don't claim
>to be of any level of notability.
>
>Instead, may I request that the page be deleted, so that this
>discussion takes on less of a personal I'm-protectiing-my-interest
>kind of tone.
>
>On 26/04/07, Ronald Chmara <ron at opus1.com> wrote:
> > On Apr 25, 2007, at 2:56 PM, Till Westermayer wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > > I have removed the proposed-for-deletion tag -- I guess it is a
> > > borderline case
> >
> > Borderline? Hm... It's WP:COI, the only published "sources" are not
> > only self generated (WP:SPS), they're also blogs loaded with viagra
> > SPAM and forum sites... this is the very reason *why* we have so many
> > guidelines on en, lest folks think that they can just throw up some
> > content and therefore  deserve their own wikipedia entry. AfD'ing
> > this and any siblings.
>
>What I am really concerned about is the manner in which entries --
>which really deserve to be included on the Wikipedia (even if needing
>a rewrite and better sourcing) -- get tagged for speedy deletion. And
>I'm concerned about the decisions being taken obviously by people who
>(sorry to be blunt) lack familiarity of the field and probably see it
>as Latin and Greek, if not Sanskrit and Khmer! My interests lie in the
>field of ICT-for-D (information and communication technology for
>development) and the alternative media:
>
>In particular, I refer to:
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OURMedia/NUESTROSMedios
>[Even links to it deleted. Reasons given: only 200+ members; not
>adequately sourced; non notability; etc, etc]
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rishab_A._Ghosh
>He's one of the most prominent persons in the ICT-for-D debate of
>Indian origin (and also known for his contribution at studying
>European issues). He was the guy who is credited with having first
>used the term FLOSS (Free/Libre and Open Source Software), and has
>undertaken prominent studies at the European level. Recently, he also
>edited a book 'Code: Collaborative Ownership and the Digital Commons'
>Rishab Aiyer Ghosh-ed MIT-published (ISBN 0-262-07260-2). So is he
>non-notable for Wikipedia?
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Vikalp
>Vikalp, a serious movement against film-censorship in India, linking a
>few hundred film-makers, almost gets deleted. Again: "non-notability"!
>
>Didn't have the time or energy to save another deserving case!
>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Natural_History_of_South_Asia_mailing_list&action=edit
>
>The founder of the most influential cyber not-for-profit operation
>from Goa, a former Portuguese colony on the west coast of India, is a
>similar victim. Non-notability! And he started what grew into Goa's
>most influential mailing-list (current readership 8-10,000+ daily)
>when he was a 17-year-old!
>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herman_Carneiro&action=edit
>
>Groups in Latin America doing interesting work in the field of ICT4D
>get questioned:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITeM
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESLARED
>Fortunately, just salvaged on time after similar protests! But I can't
>spend my life just in verbal skirmishes with certainly don't win
>friends (and sometimes, don't even influence people!)
>
>A friend of mine, who's active in global campaigns on ICT4D, couldn't
>believe that Ungana Afrika could be threatened by a 'non-notability'
>tag. But when will our Western friends recognise that the work one
>does isn't always reflected in cyberspace... in large parts of the
>globe, there's a total disjunct between the two. And that's what
>shorthand like the 'digital divide' is all about in the first place!
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ungana-Afrika
>
>Another page deleted. Who cares about Free Software and Open Source in
>the world's most populous planet (even if we have a network of 130+
>groups in India alone)?
>LUGs, FSUGs, GLUGs in India and Asia
>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=LUGs%2C_FSUGs%2C_GLUGs_in_India_and_Asia&action=edit
>
>And another one bites the dust:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gobala_Krishnan&action=edit
>
>And finally, what triggered it all off:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OURMedia/NUESTROSMedios
>
>Okay guys, I rest my case. --FN
>
> > If it's widely noticed, it will be documented, and thus pass WP:V
>
>PS: Are you so sure? Most of the cultures of this planet are still not
>even documented, let alone digitised. And, in a Western-defined world,
>what you're saying is if you aren't digitised, you don't exist!
>Well... some fundamental differences in perception here.
>--
>FN M: 0091 9822122436 P: +91-832-240-9490 (after 1300IST please)
>http://fn.goa-india.org  http://fredericknoronha.wordpress.com
>Konkani Wikipedia (under incubation) needs your help!
>http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/kok
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 5
>Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 08:20:45 +0200
>From: Till Westermayer <till at tillwe.de>
>Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Deletions, speedy deletions... and
>	retributions...
>To: wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>Message-ID: <463044BD.1050800 at tillwe.de>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>Two or three short remarks:
>
>Ronald Chmara schrieb am 26.04.2007 07:22:
> > On Apr 25, 2007, at 2:56 PM, Till Westermayer wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >> I have removed the proposed-for-deletion tag -- I guess it is a
> >> borderline case
> >
> > Borderline? Hm... It's WP:COI, the only published "sources" are not
> > only self generated (WP:SPS), they're also blogs loaded with viagra
> > SPAM and forum sites... this is the very reason *why* we have so many
> > guidelines on en, lest folks think that they can just throw up some
> > content and therefore  deserve their own wikipedia entry. AfD'ing
> > this and any siblings.
>
>About "throwing up content" -- I guess this overestimates Wikipedias
>notability: most often there is some content, and the Wikipedia entry
>follows later. That people do it the other way round (or produce
>content only to get an Wikipedia entry) is highly improbable and
>definitly not the case with FN.
>
> >>>  (As one editor
> >>> once told me, good naturedly, "If I want to give you a reason to
> >>> block
> >>> your article, I could give you any one of 31 good reasons for it."
> >>> Yeah, reasons are easy to come by, once someone's mind is made up.)
> >
> > Experienced editors may already be quite familiar with the criteria.
> > So far, I've counted: VAIN/COI, CORP/ORG, SPS, V. It might or might
> > not be SNOW, I'll leave that to others to decide. :)
>
>Argh. "Real life" got me a year ago or so, which lead to a drastical
>lowering of my Wikipedia-activity. In that short time, somehow lots of
>acronyms creep out somewhere -- most of them I don't recognize.
>
> >>> * There should be good reason for deletion of any page (this should
> >>> not be taken to mean that I'm making even an indirect case for my
> >>> page.
> >
> > AfD requires reasons, and consensus.
>
>That's the reason why I deleted the notice (and thus enabled that
>someone -- you -- brings it to AfD). I don't think the AfD-process
>works well in all cases, but we will see. And at least I don't think I
>can judge if an Indian FOSS journalist is notable or not -- my
>intuition is a sort of notability (not because FN is active here, but
>I think the structual bias he describes is there).
>
>--
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>till we *) ~ Till Westermayer ~ Hirschstrasse 5 ~ 79100 Freiburg
>0761 55697152 ~ till at tillwe.de ~ http://www.westermayer.de/till/
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 6
>Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 09:26:33 +0300
>From: "Berto 'd Sera" <albertoserra at ukr.net>
>Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] New Wikipedia in " Romanesco "
>To: <wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>Message-ID: <002001c787cb$d59d38b0$0201a8c0 at alles>
>Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
>
>LOL which never kept any of the software vendors to answer me RTFM (read 
>the
>f**ng manual) any time I started to venture in discussion before doing it 
>:)
>
>Berto 'd Sera
>Personagi dl'ann 2006 per l'arvista american-a Time (tanme tuti vojaotri)
>http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1569514,00.html
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: wikipedia-l-bounces at lists.wikimedia.org
>[mailto:wikipedia-l-bounces at lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of David Gerard
>Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 1:07 AM
>To: wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] New Wikipedia in " Romanesco "
>
>On 25/04/07, GerardM <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Read the policy.
>
>
>And one day you will learn that when people question the policy,
>answering "Read the policy" only makes them angrier.
>
>
>- d.
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Message: 7
>Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 01:01:13 -0700
>From: Ronald Chmara <ron at Opus1.COM>
>Subject: Re: [Wikipedia-l] Deletions, speedy deletions... and
>	retributions...
>To: wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>Message-ID: <85B41CA5-D4A1-40BE-8557-CCCA60DD8905 at opus1.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
>
>On Apr 25, 2007, at 11:00 PM, Frederick Noronha wrote:
> > Hi all: Please don't discuss me or the page referring to me on
> > Wikipedia. I have no delusions of grandeur, didn't initiate the page
> > myself (just felt the need to correct the info which was incorrect on
> > it, after waiting awhile and seeing nothing change!), and don't claim
> > to be of any level of notability.
>
>When AfD'ing it, and notifying editors, I ran into your User:Talk
>page... looks like a cattle {{prod}} zapped it. Ow.
>
> > Instead, may I request that the page be deleted...
>
>You can do just that on:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/
>Frederick_Noronha
>
> > ... so that this
> > discussion takes on less of a personal I'm-protectiing-my-interest
> > kind of tone.
>
>Okay. :)
>
> > What I am really concerned about is the manner in which entries --
> > which really deserve to be included on the Wikipedia (even if needing
> > a rewrite and better sourcing) -- get tagged for speedy deletion.
>
>I've had a few of those, some admins are pretty quick with the
>triggers, but our tiered deletion process is designed to sort out the
>possible problems, to a certain extent...
>
> > In particular, I refer to:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OURMedia/NUESTROSMedios
> > [Even links to it deleted. Reasons given: only 200+ members; not
> > adequately sourced; non notability; etc, etc]
>
>Those are standard reasons, with the core problem being sourcing,
>indicating a lack of notability and verifiability. Verifiability is
>the primary tool we have to keep people from inventing fictitious
>entities, or listing their chess club (that has 50 online members,
>and nothing other than their 100 blogs claiming various things), or
>an individual writing "THE TRUTH ABOUT MY UFO ABDUCTION" and then
>posting it to hundreds (or thousands) of websites.
>
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rishab_A._Ghosh
> > So is he non-notable for Wikipedia?
>
>73K ghits, member of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
>Open_Source_Initiative (Passes WP:ORG), but it's a stub that needs
>more assertions of notability on why he would be, oh..... considered
>important, as an individual?
>
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Vikalp
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?
> > title=Natural_History_of_South_Asia_mailing_list&action=edit
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herman_Carneiro&action=edit
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITeM
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESLARED
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=LUGs%2C_FSUGs%
> > 2C_GLUGs_in_India_and_Asia&action=edit
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gobala_Krishnan&action=edit
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OURMedia/NUESTROSMedios
>
>
>Some of the recurring themes I'm seeing so far, actually, viewed from
>*my* perspective, are articles about topics (and with text inside the
>articles about topics)  that (to me) are completely *unimportant* in
>terms of notability.
>
>Managing/having a mailing list is not notable, managing a website is
>not notable, managing a journal is not notable, nor is being a
>journalist, nor being a frequent F/OSS contributor, nor starting a
>regional, national, or international group, to *me*, and let me
>emphasize the next point quite heavily: "Because all of these things,
>right now, are done by almost every bored teenager or adult  in
>*highly developed countries* with the slightest of inclinations to do
>so."
>
>And this, I think, might be where some bias is kicking in.
>
>Some examples: In the developing world, running your own nonprofit
>ISP might be a major thing, in the United States, I can count at
>least five personal friends who did so *as a way of passing time*.
>Sure, taking time away from making a living to work on F/OSS project
>is very significant, and notable, when one is having to cut down on
>their food budget to do so, but in the US, it can be "something to
>do" besides sitting on the couch and watching TV.
>
>See:
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:BIAS
>
>
>
> > Okay guys, I rest my case. --FN
> >> If it's widely noticed, it will be documented, and thus pass WP:V
> > PS: Are you so sure? Most of the cultures of this planet are still not
> > even documented, let alone digitised.
>
>My older brother is a geographic anthropologist. I know that there's
>a major, ongoing, effort to take the information from cultures that
>lack written documentation and capture it. I also do know that it is
>a race against time. Responding directly to your point, though, if
>"widely" means 600 people of the culture of a  hill tribe in some non-
>developed country, wikipedia likely will not have it, and nor will
>the rest of the world, unless it is published in a reliable source
>(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:RS) first.
>
> > And, in a Western-defined world,
> > what you're saying is if you aren't digitised, you don't exist!
> > Well... some fundamental differences in perception here.
>
>No, I'm saying that unless the story is told to the others, it cannot
>be heard by the others. Digitizing makes it easier for things like
>testing ghits, be we also have articles that one *must* find paper
>copies of some prior text in order to verify the data.
>
>:)
>
>-Bop
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>Wikipedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org
>http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>
>
>End of Wikipedia-l Digest, Vol 45, Issue 21
>*******************************************

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