[Wikipedia-l] Use of images (again)

[Berto]

Hi again!

> (Universal login: we at Commons await it more than anyone else,
> possibly. ;)) As for English login, not quite. We have managed to
> internationalise the login as much as possible: see
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Userlogin .

Yes, I've used it myself. The main problem is that most users who are afraid
of english will never get to see, because they will simply not click on the
*login* link. Anyway, if we can setup a proper instruction page on local
bases (that is, on pms) we can bridge this. The same would apply to
interliki links. If one can mantain a usable UI on *any* edition he will not
fear trying even the most exotic language... and this really is a quick way
to locate additional pics to use in a given context.

> ) that it is now possible to have "Optional language selector for user
> login/registration forms". So I certainly hope Commons will be the
> first place to implement that.
I see it on all editions (more precisely: IT, EN, META, COMMONS) even now...
so probably we talk about different selectors. My common:user works in pms
lang, so do my it:user, en:user, meta:user, etc. What worries me is that a
user needs to undergo a first page in a foreign language, in order to do
this. If we could just send the user language as a link parameter we could
probably solve the problem...

> > 2) there is no way for a local edition to use commons as an "included"
> > service (that is, one page as another, inside the edition).
I mean having your upload page instead of mine. Which means all the links in
the page drive the user back into pms, while only upload functions and image
galleries relate to your server from everywhere in pms. Having exported fake
pages is okay, too. The thing I do not wnat to happen is an unexperienced
user to get lost somewhere beween two servers. What I want is having commons
"seamiglessly" integrated in local editions. People should not even know
that they are changing servers, unles they are interested in the tech
details and go reading the docs. Most users do not give a damn about it, all
they want is their pic to be uploaded for them to use it in an article, not
a conference on distributed systems management.

> > 3) file categorisation is 100% :en. (let alone file description)
> Yes, this is true. Technical limitation until category RDRs are
> properly implemented.
Yes... I just tried to create a Category:{{Foo}} but there is no way to
include a template in the title. It's a pity, because it's actually all it
would take to get rid of the problem...

> File descriptions are NOT required to be in
> English at all.
Yes, but I really wonder what can a japanese user get from a pms file
description.

> > 4) file descriptions should have a sort of "fallback language", so that
once
> Not sure what you mean by this. We encourage people to translate the
> descriptions on image pages.
I mean something like there is on Betawiki for translators to manage UI
messages. You get the original version, and you can add your own in your
language. For commons I'd also have a box for a third language. This way
bilingual speakers may be able to work and place their description(s) in the
proper lang-code(s), for it to be shown to a native speaker when it comes
the time. This way you always get the original description, an additional
:en version (if present), and your version (again, if present). Most of the
users' digital pics describing places that have a related wiki edition are
not going to be english. We can really collect a lot of views from all over
the planet, if we can manage to make it accessible to users. But we also
must think of how to make this usable...

There is no way to provide that many translators for minor languages, but
then again... most local editions will have their main interest focused on
local places and features, and they will produce the pics for themselves.
Having categories translated will do the rest.

>(Check-Usage is a tool that
> tells you where a Commons image is being used in all of Wikimedia.
> Like global "what links here".)
Yes, check usage is handy... another very good point for using commons.

> > 5) commons interface is quite out of wiki standards, and the
localisations
> > distributed by Betawiki do not seem to cover the whole UI, part of which
> > remains in english anyway.
>
> Hm, I am not sure about the technical points with Languages.php and
> all that. We have changed our navigation menu which most language
> files can't cope with, I know...
The answer could be having an extension file (smt like CommonsPms.php)
managed by Betawiki. Most translators go there anyway, all the proper
check-stuff is in place, so it could simply become a part of the
distribution set. It would also help in getting new languages immediately in
touch with commons. If you are "born using commons", then you do not need to
consider it a problem. But as things are now it often simply becomes just
"one more pain in the a**". And it eventually falls down to the bottom of
admins' priority list. Which is exactly what happened with us @ pms.

> I will just say we really encourage
> translators and are very responsive to updating translations. I
> personally promise that if you put translations on my talk page, I
> will update them within 24 hours of reading my talk page.
It's okay, Next week I'll start the translation. Even if we cannot have
perfection right tomorrow, there is no reason not to get the whole thing
ready in advance.

> If you are interested, and maybe you are since your English is great,
> we can work together and over the next week update the language(s) you
> speak so they're all up to date. I agree that having the interface
> translated is important. (and policy pages, and warnings :) but most
> important of all is to have admins who can act as a bridge.)
LOL yes... The worst problem with wikipedia is the total absence of a clear
way to understand how to do what and what is to be used for what. In the end
it always becomes a pure matter of personal relations...

> Using Commons means less work, but it certainly doesn't mean NO work.
> It is necessary that some admins from that Wikipedia/language take on
> extra responsibility and become Commons admins.
Hmmm... well... I guess I have a candidate for this :) Not me, if I want to
remain alive :)))  But I'll get you a competent pms speaker. Promised. :)

> So some people do have to
> step up, because throwing your users in the deep end with no Commons
> contact will not work at all.
That was my worry, exactly.

> We have a page
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Help_page_maintenance
> which has a rough heirarchy of which pages should be translated first.

> I looked up Piedmontese since I freely admit my ignorance of it. I see
> it is spoken in Italy. I was wondering what kind of attitude
> Piedmontese speakers have towards Italian speakers?
In a 3 million people user base you'll find a zillion different attitudes,
depending on political opinions, soccer results, the weather, the attitude
towards pms that a given ita speaker has... the relational result is totally
unpredictable, as it ranges in scope from flame wars to pure love.  I manage
this stuff each every day @ pms, but I tell you, I'd be better off in
predicting what's going to be the weather in Iceland during 2010 :) It
cannot really be used as a decision criteria.

> Is it true that
> most Piedmontese users can also read/understand Italian?
80% of them yes.  A remaining 19% lives in Argentina since ages already and
would be better off with ES. Us, that is the 1% high tech expat community,
will probably be better off with EN, but one must consider that (as it is
also the case for SCN and many other european minority languages) this
particular 1% often counts as a full 70%, when it comes to counting a wiki's
user base. At least at the beginning of the project.

>ie....are Italian help files and messages sufficient for Piedmontese
speakers?
No. In every day life it almost always gets substituted by ITA in Piedmont,
and if we cannot keep an homogenous linguistic environment for our users we
really risk turning all our efforts to failure. We need people to have a
place for them to use the language for all kind of needs, if we want them to
develop that proficiency that is necessary to write a good pms wiki. It's a
pity, because it actually means that I get an additional load of
translations work on my "to-do" list, but unfortunately that's the way it
is...

> from an Italian one? Please don't take offence if the answer is "100%
> essential". There's only one way to find out these things....
No offence at all :) We deal with marketing and chances for a wiki to be
succesful. As far as languages are concerned I am totally result-oriented,
politics and emotions mean absolutely nothing to me. You give me data, I
give you data, and we both use them to find a solution that  will generate
more contributions and a wider user base for all. That's it. :)

Mmmm... I can't seem to guess your nick on common... you can leave me mail
on http://pms.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussioni_utente:Bèrto_'d_Sèra so we can
define a practical action plan for the merger... :) We got some 80 pics so
far, If we manage to transfer them now it will be easier than making it once
they already grew up to 800.

Bèrto