[Wikipedia-l] Re: Re: Re: new request for ASL/English wikipedia (Neil Harris)

[Mark Williamson]

Again, somebody who seems to have skipped over everything I've ever
said about signed languages, going months and dozens of posts back.

Whatever.

The part of the e-mail that really struck me, though, was:

> We might then run into
> a situation similar to the båkmal/nynorsk, or the cantonese/mandarin
> fiascos, in which each variant of sign language demands a seperate wiki for
> itself.  If we allow an ASL wiki, then how can we say no to an Auslan wiki,
> a Gestuno wiki, an ISL wiki, etc.

1) Bokmål is spelt bokmål, not båkmal. Not that big of an issue
though, because people do things like that all the time, for example
Jimbo's "Mandarian" or Angela's "Sinetic" (though to be fair, Angela's
"Sinetic" e-mail was in response to somebody else who used that
erroneous spelling).
2) Perhaps you're thinking of Traditional and Simplified Chinese,
rather than Cantonese and Mandarin? As countless native speakers have
testified here, Written Cantonese is very different from written
Mandarin, it can't be considered a variant logically.
3) Each variant of sign language is the part that really took away a
good part of my faith in the human race.

>From the Wikipedia article on signed languages: "However, contrary to
popular belief, sign language is not universal. Wherever communities
of deaf people exist, sign languages develop, but as with spoken
languages, these vary from region to region. They are not based on the
spoken language in the country of origin; in fact their complex
spatial grammars are markedly different."

Chinese Sign Language and American Sign Language are AS DIFFERENT AS
ENGLISH AND CHINESE, if not more so.

In fact, relations between signed languages often offer interesting
contrasts to the spoken languages of the areas, for example:

American Sign Language is closely related to French Sign Language, but
is completely mutually unintelligible with British Sign Language.

Taiwanese Sign Language is closely related to Japanese Sign Language,
but is completely mutually unintelligible with Chinese Sign Language
or Hong Kong Sign Language.

Cheers?
Mark

On 09/09/05, Craig Franklin <craig at halo-17.net> wrote:
> Scríobh Neil Harris:
> 
> > ASL is most certainly a first-class language, but it _must be written_
> > to be usable in a text-based system like Wikipedia.
> 
> I think this is the key here.  Do deaf persons in the United States actually
> write ASL in their everyday lives.  A quick bit of Googling and research
> seems to indicate that there isn't even a settled orthography for ASL, so
> producing material in a written form seems counterproductive.  Half a
> million people might "speak" the language on a daily basis, but if only 5%
> of people understand the particular form of notation that is used, it's
> going to be close to useless for most deaf persons.  We might then run into
> a situation similar to the båkmal/nynorsk, or the cantonese/mandarin
> fiascos, in which each variant of sign language demands a seperate wiki for
> itself.  If we allow an ASL wiki, then how can we say no to an Auslan wiki,
> a Gestuno wiki, an ISL wiki, etc.
> 
> Sadly, I think that sign languages can, at the present time, be only
> classified as being spoken and not written.  If you can show me a commonly
> accepted written notation for ASL (that has, for example, 50%+ understanding
> from those who use ASL as a spoken language), that can be conceivably used
> on the internet, then I'll be the first to call for the wiki's creation.
> Unfortunately, I think this is a technical challenge that might not be
> possible at the present time (since SignWriting, which seems to be the most
> popular of the written notations, doesn't seem to have any Unicode support).
> 
> - Craig [[en:Lankiveil]]
> 
> -------------------
> Craig Franklin
> PO Box 764
> Ashgrove, Q, 4060
> Australia
> http://www.halo-17.net - Australia's Favourite Source of Indie Music, Art,
> and Culture.
> 
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