[Wikipedia-l] Re: Autofellatio

[Anthere]

I'll consider starting yoga and relaxing techniques today...

Ant


Mark Williamson a écrit:
> Gregory, let me tell you, Jimbo doesn't seem to understand
> metaphorical language or figures of speech, and I don't think he can
> tell when people are being completely serious or when they're
> exaggerating a bit. I know this from experience, and have had the same
> problem with Danny. I have been told by one of them (can't remember
> which), "Nobody's saying you burned their crops". He also doesn't seem
> to understand very well the sliding scale that should be used in the
> case of an e-mail like yours.
> 
> He seems to think that you were directly suggesting Ant fork, which is
> definitely not the case. (as far as I can tell, you are saying that
> she is at odds with foundation philosophy and that if she really wants
> to have a Wikipedia where it doesn't follow philosophy, she can make a
> fork; rather than a suggestion that she really should)
> 
> My advice is to be very literal with him, and only say exactly what you mean.
> 
> Mark
> 
> On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 19:11:55 -0500, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 04:42:36 -0800, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales
>><jwales at wikia.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Gregory Maxwell wrote:
>>>
>>>>If your interest is to censor encyclopedic content on any wikimedia
>>>>wikipedia, then your goals are at odds with the goals of the
>>>>foundation.  Because you do not share the same goals, you should fork
>>>>and produce your own project with censorship among it's goals.
>>>
>>>This is really over-the-top, Gregory.
>>
>>Is that really the case?
>>I'm surprised that you would disagree with the statement above, that
>>if someone's intention is to censor encyclopedic content, based on
>>such value judgements, that they are at odds with the project and
>>should work on something else.
>>
>>I certainly see how you might state that I was mistaken in classifying
>>the proposed measures as censorship, or that it was rude of me to
>>insult someone of unquestionable value...
>>
>>
>>>My problem with people using the word "censorship" in talking about
>>>this very complex issue is precisely that we get responses like yours,
>>>which are really not very helpful and short-circuit our ability to
>>>think critically about the issue.
>>>
>>>We are *all* (the major participants) opposed to censorship (in the
>>>sense that you mean), including (very strongly) Anthere.  It is our
>>>goal to educate and inform, not to shock, offend, or titillate.
>>>Of course there is a tiny majority of people who are interested in
>>>censoring Wikipedia.  Fine.  Ignore them.
>>
>>This is quite heartening to hear reaffirmed.
>>
>>At the same time, what I see being proposed is the idea that it's
>>acceptable for wikipedias in differing languages to have a differing
>>set of standards, and this is the one, and perhaps only, point where I
>>am reasonably confident that I am not misunderstanding Anthere.  I
>>don't see how these ideas can coexist.
>>
>>If our test of a material is it's value to educate and inform, is it
>>not true that the same material which would educate and inform would
>>also educate and inform people of another language?
>>
>>A policy that says that we will exclude content differently depending
>>on the language of wikipedia, says that we are applying an additional
>>test, a test of moral rightness.
>>
>>
>>>But don't imagine that those of us who think that, for example, it is
>>>blatantly obvious that the [[Imgae:Autofellatio_2.jpg]] image is wildly
>>>inappropriate for wikipedia are simply prudish censors.  Such a view
>>>really fails to respect and understand the point that we are making.
>>
>>This thread is surrounded on all sides with bad information...
>>Anthere's initial concern was primarily about vandalism... But
>>vandalism is an issue that we can't even come close to solving by the
>>proposed measures that I objected so strongly to (value based
>>standards of content)...
>>
>>The autofellatio image is a bad example because most people would
>>agree that it has some of the poorest inform to shock ratios of call
>>the contested images on wikipedia.  (I'd still argue it's of value, as
>>one person said after seeing it... "wow.. thats possible? eww",  but I
>>haven't been involved in the voting for that image and don't intend to
>>be)
>>
>>I jumped in the thread because I believe that the idea of differing
>>standards inclusion standards in differing languages necessitates
>>censorship and I decided that it was a worthwhile matter which was
>>being ignored in the thread... because of the separately worthwhile
>>discussion of applying technical means to address that specific form
>>of vandalism.
>>
>>
>>>A respectful discussion of this difficult issue is hard to have if
>>>anyone who is in favor of deleting some images from wikipedia is to be
>>>shunned as a censor who ought to leave the project and fork.
>>
>>My apologies, both to the list and Anthere, on this matter... My
>>attempt cut away issues I saw as extranious to the issue I wanted to
>>discuss (vandalism, that specific image,etc) came off as offensive. (I
>>may not care if you find a useful image on the 'pedia offensive, but I
>>really would hope you don't find my discussions as offensive.)
>>
>>Grey paint begins with black and white.
>>
>>I did not mean to imply that we should shun the issues or the people
>>bringing them, but rather strike up some vigorous discussion on this
>>important matter...   and through out some ideas that I think should
>>be widely acceptable, such as "if making good/evil value judgements
>>about content is someones goal then everyone would gain from them
>>working on a fork, given the intentions of the project".
>>
>>
>>>Especially, for goodness sake, Anthere, who is a hero to us all.
>>
>>Well,  If I'm going to have to base my discussions on whom is
>>proposing an idea rather than the merits of the idea, then I should
>>probably give up now.... :)
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