[Wikipedia-l] Moldovan Wikipedia Proposal
Mark Williamson
node.ue at gmail.com
Wed Jun 22 08:29:10 UTC 2005
I feel I should also add something about my being a sysop.
My actions as a sysop (which I have been for about 3 days following an
emergency request):
1) protecting both main pages. The NPOV notices on them were added by
IP users, and I saw them as vandalism. In addition, one of these pages
had only 1 sentence on it, so labelling it as POV is a bit extreme. It
was also my view that NPOV notices belong on content pages, not the
mainpage which should be kept clear to avoid confusion to new users.
In addition, _the POV notice itself_ said "There is no such thing as a
moldovan language. The fact that Romanian can and may be written in
another alphabet does not make it a language other the..." which is
obviously not NPOV.
2) making translations to the interface.
3) deleting a couple of pages. They were:
3a) "Hincesti" (title actually in Cyrillic). Contents: "super puper
stadt- acolo verishoara mea traieshte, olea cebotaru"
3b) Kazahstan. Empty, title in Latin alphabet.
3c) Geschäftspartnern. Contents: "Siehe auch: MO, Gedanken, Schmiede,
Übertragung, Bilder, Psychose, Hypnose". ie, it was in German.
3d) Template:POV. Contents: "content was: '{{Message_box|id
=NPOV|backgroundcolor =AntiqueWhite|image =Stop_hand.png|heading =The
neutrality of this arti..." (referred to template:message_box, which
had a very POV message about the Moldovan speech, and also was used
only on the main pages).
3e) Template:Messagebox. Contents: "There is no such thing as a
moldovan language. The fact that Romanian can and may be written in
another alphabet does not make it a language other the..."
(irreparably POV)
Unlike the Stalinist I am accused of being, I have put Latin alphabet
FIRST in all interface translations, and have banned nobody, and have
not protected anything except the mainpage.
Although I'm not at all happy with all of the people who are accusing
me of being a Stalinist, and at Danutz for calling me a "Japanese
fag", I have not blocked any of them, and do not plan to.
Mark
On 22/06/05, Mark Williamson <node.ue at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have nothing to add, except:
>
> Approximately 33% of Moldovans believe there is, in fact, a Moldovan
> language. This is hundreds of thousands of people.
>
> In my view, the NPOV is that "some people say a Moldovan language
> exists, others say it doesn't", because this is actually the case. (I
> personally believe that Moldovan and Romanian are the same language
> with two different names).
>
> My accusations of them being Romanian extremist nationalists are not
> unsubstantiated. One person signs their messages as "Organizatia
> Romana Unionista" (Romanian Unionist Organisation, unionist refers to
> advocating the re-integration of Moldova into Romania).
>
> Others have cited such reasons as the alleged ugliness of Cyrillic, or
> that anybody who uses Cyrillic to write Moldovan must be a Stalinist,
> and therefore should be ignored.
>
> Danutz called me a "Japanese fag", as well. "Nationalist" is not an
> insult, just a label trying to indicate bias. However, I perceive both
> "stalinist" and "fag" as intentional insults.
>
> So far, there have been a few actual people in Moldova who have visited:
> 1) Vertaler. He produced a great portion of the content that currently
> exists at mo.wiki. He left contact information, but doesn't seem to
> visit regularly anymore. He didn't make a statement about his position
> on whether the Wiki should exist, but he contributed a lot to it, so
> my guess is that he supports it. He demonstrated fluency by posting a
> bit of content in the language.
> 2) Anonymous Moldovan user. He made some changes to the Moldovan on
> several pages, in Cyrillic. He has a Moldovan IP, but the timestamps
> on his edits indicate that he's probably not Vertaler or Dmitriid. He
> demonstrated fluency by posting a bit of content in the language.
> 3) Dmitriid. He has expressed that the Wikipedia is "redundant", since
> the articles say the same thing as the Romanian version (they are
> written in a different alphabet, though, and there's probably about 3%
> original content). Originally he expressed a belief that the Wikipedia
> should be deleted, but about a day ago he revised his opinion to say
> that a Cyrillic version might be nessecary. He demonstrated fluency by
> posting a bit of content in the language. (in Latin script; however
> other signs indicate that he can read Cyrillic)
>
> There is also Landroni, who says he's a Moldovan man in France. He is
> diametrically opposed to the existance of the Wikipedia, and has said
> some pretty extreme stuff against it. However, he has not demonstrated
> fluency on even the most basic level because everything he said was in
> English.
>
> The major Romanian participants (besides Ronline):
> Danutz. Originally, it seemed he was OK with the existance of mo.wiki
> in its present form. However, recently he began to oppose it,
> including calling me names. He is a sysop at ro.wiki.
> Duca. Originally, both myself and Danutz discussed with him why it was
> essential that mo.wiki exist. He labelled me as Stalinist and Russian,
> and asked why Danutz, a Romanian, was supporting a Stalinist. He also
> accused me of being a KGB agent. He seems to have disappeared a couple
> of days ago. He is not an established user on any Wikipedia.
> Domnu Goie. Domnu Goie entered the situation only in the last few
> days. His accusations are more alarming to me than Duca's. One of his
> main beliefs is that a mainpage that says "Moldovan Wikipedia" is
> extremely POV (and "stalinist propaganda"), and that to be "neutral"
> it must say "Moldovan (Romanian) Wikipedia". He has variously accused
> me of being a Russian, a Stalinist, a KGB agent... he is not, to my
> knowledge, an established user on any Wikipedia.
> Organizatia Romana Unionista. Only made a couple of posts.
> Vasile. I have no idea about this user.
>
> Mark
>
> On 22/06/05, Wikipedia Romania (Ronline) <rowikipedia at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Hi to all,
> >
> > This is Ronline from the Romanian Wikipedia. We have
> > currently (in the past week especially) had quite a
> > lot of controversy about the Moldovan Wikipedia at
> > http://mo.wikipedia.org.
> >
> > The reason I'm raising the issue here is to gauge the
> > response of the wider community towards my proposal
> > and also what's happening over at mo:
> >
> > Mo.wikipedia.org was founded a while ago, but until
> > about this year, it basically had no content and
> > simply contained a redirect link to the Romanian
> > Wikipedia, since Moldovan is identical to Romanian,
> > renamed for political reasons (I won't go into the
> > whole story now, you can see
> > en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldovan_language).
> >
> > Anyway, so a few months ago, a user called Vertaler
> > came and added some Cyrillic content to the Moldovan
> > Wikipedia. Cyrillic is a script used by a minority of
> > Moldovans. Node_ue (Mark Williamson) supported that
> > and said that he wishes to convert mo.wikipedia.org
> > into a Cyrillic-Moldovan Wikipedia, with all Latin
> > content being placed at ro.wikipedia.org in order to
> > avoid duplication.
> >
> > After negotation with Node, I have come forward with a
> > proposal that he has agreed with, which seeks to
> > establish mo.wikipedia.org as a biscriptal
> > Latin/Cyrillic Wikipedia in interface, and a
> > biscriptal portal, but with Cyrillic content hosted on
> > mo.wikipedia in order to avoid duplication with
> > ro.wiki.
> >
> > The entire proposal is at
> > http://mo.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ronline/Propunere,
> > in English and Romanian.
> >
> > Now, the reason I've come here is because some users
> > from the Romanian Wikipedia do not agree with keeping
> > a Moldovan Wikipedia for Cyrillic content, because
> > they believe that a Moldovan language doesn't exist
> > (most linguists agree with this) and that since
> > Wikipedia is neutral, it shouldn't have a Wikipedia in
> > a language renamed for political reasons like
> > Moldovan. Also, since Cyrillic is no longer the
> > official script in Moldova (it used to be during
> > Communist times), there is no place for it as mo.wiki.
> > Other users agree to Cyrillic content, but not under
> > the "Moldovan language" name.
> >
> > The controversy, which can be viewed at
> > http://mo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Паӂина
> > принчипалэ,
> > has been exacerbated by the fact that there has been
> > mutual distrust between Node on one hand, and a series
> > of Romanian users, on the other. Node has blamed the
> > Romanian users for being "nationalist" and "radical"
> > and "anti-Moldovan", this being the reason why they
> > don't support a Moldovan Wikipedia. The Romanian users
> > have labelled Node a "Stalinist" and claim that he is
> > not listening to them even though they are in the
> > majority.
> >
> > Danutz, a Romanian user, pointed out that it is unfair
> > that Node is the only user which supports the Moldovan
> > Wikipedia, when he does not even speak
> > Moldovan/Romanian very well (it seems he has some
> > Moldovan roots, though) and has placed himself as
> > sysop undemocratically (without any community
> > consensus - note, though, that at that time the
> > Romanian visitors weren't yet aware of the mo.wiki).
> > They therefore feel that an abuse of power is taking
> > place, especially since Node is saying that the
> > Romanian users shouldn't be able to have a say because
> > they aren't Moldovan (in which case, the Romanian
> > users claim that Node also doesn't have a right
> > because he can "barely" speak Romanian/Moldovan).
> >
> > Now, personally, I have taken a very neutral stance
> > and compelled both sides to argue more rationally and
> > stop the criticism. I also am entirely committed to
> > hearing both sides out and acting in a professional
> > manner.
> >
> > We have made some headway recently, and I have struck
> > an agreement with Node over my proposal, which he
> > seems to support. Some of the Romanian users, however,
> > still do not agree with all parts of the proposal,
> > some of them asking for a separate subdomain for a
> > Moldovan-Cyrillic wiki. What do people say to that? I
> > would personally agree to that, meaning a mo.wiki
> > which is simply a portal, and a mo-cyr.wikipedia.org
> > which hosts only Cyrillic content.
> >
> > I have presented my case here in order to gauge public
> > response. I have also opened a consultation period
> > with the community to allow for any complaints to the
> > proposal, at
> > http://mo.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ronline/Propunere.
> > I'd just like to hear some opinions of people which
> > aren't involved in this case so we can get more
> > neutral, unaffiliated viewpoints.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Ronline
> >
> > ____________________________________________________
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>
> --
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> QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
> POSSIT MATERIARI
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>
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SI HOC LEGERE SCIS NIMIVM ERVDITIONIS HABES
QVANTVM MATERIAE MATERIETVR MARMOTA MONAX SI MARMOTA MONAX MATERIAM
POSSIT MATERIARI
ESTNE VOLVMEN IN TOGA AN SOLVM TIBI LIBET ME VIDERE
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