[Wikipedia-l] Quenya language

[Ron H]

>You shall not misinterpret Google to your own advantages. Using Google I
come up with 121,000 "Quenya" results and 983,000 "Klingon" ones. Now
*that* is even more of a difference, isn't it?

No, it isn't, Andre :) . It's a difference of a factor of 10, which is the 
same as my results. Only thing is: "Klingon" is the name of both the *race* 
and the *language*. Quenya is only the name of the language. So naturally 
'Klingon' gets more hits. To me, THAT seems a misinterpretation.

I was discussing with Mark the number of *fluent* speakers of Quenya vs 
*fluent* speakers of Klingon. Naturally, fluent speakers are more likely to 
use the Klingon word for "Klingon", just as fluent speakers of Quenya are 
more likely to refer to 'Quenya' rather than "Elf-latin" (the English term 
for Quenya).

In other words, "Quenya" (the word for Tolkien's elf-latin IN elf-latin) 
returns 121,000 results, and the the word for "Klingon" IN Klingon returns 
far, far fewer results. I don't think that's a misinterpretation, as I was 
simply discussing the number of fluent speakers of each language. I speak 
Spanish, and when I'm speaking Spanish, I say "Hablo español,", not "Hablo 
Spanish."

I actually tried this google search with several words in both languages. 
"Macil" (Quenya for "sword") returned 10,200 results. "Makil", an alternate 
spelling, returned 6,440 results. "Hyanda", another alternate, returned 
3,430 results. " 'etlh", the Klingon word for sword, returned just 3,430 
results.

"Aurë", Quenya "day" returned 4,350 results. "DaHjaj" ("today" in Klingon) 
returned just 1,360 results.

I considered testing more words (for example, 'east', 'west', 'north' and 
'south'), but Klingon doesn't have words for most of these directions. And 
some Klingon words return results for Hebrew or Asian languages. Same for 
Quenya. Which somewhat defeats the point of searching for results on google.

>And I have to agree with Mark that there are in all likelyhood more
speakers of Klingon than of Quenya (and perhaps even Sindarin). Randomly
running into a Klingonist is more likely than finding someone who can
really say something in Quenya (that is to say, more than just some
phrases from the movies or the books).

I'm not sure I agree with this. Though the television media has always 
mentioned Klingon frequently, it's important to note that Klingon was 
*invented* by the television mass-media. So there's bound to be a bias. 
Plus, your statement ignores the thousands of Russian Tolkien liguists (and 
there *are* thousands).

>Uhm... I might have to add that I'm not really against a Wikipedia in
Quenya, but I fear that in future more and more conlangs might ask for a
Wikipedia. Certainly Esperanto, Volapük or Interlingua isn't point of
objection, but I understand that Klingon was (although I support it
widely).

I can certainly understand that fear. Let me ask: how many conlangs have 
devoted followings with workable languages (ie, a fairly full vocabulary: 
approximately 10,000 words) and enough scholarly source material 
(dictionaries, primers, etc) to back up translations? And people who speak 
the tongue fluently who are willing to contribute many articles to 
wikipedia? I actually don't know, but I suspect there can't be very many. 
All JMHO, of course. And I could be wrong.

>*My* biggest problems with the Klingon Wikipedia were the following two
issues:

a) What to do with proper names like "America", "Peking" or "George
Bush"? Should they be kept in their English equivalent (since in Star
Trek, Klingons had more contact with English speakers) and just be
italicized or marked {otherwise}? Or should they be klingonified and
adepted to the Klingon way of syllabic writing, such as "'amerIqa",
"peyqIng", "jorIj buS"? And if yes, then should geographic names be
klingonified in their own language's way or by the English way? Should
it be "peyqIng" and "'InDIya" or "beyjIng" and "barat" instead?

>b) What to do with words that don't exist in Klingon/Quenya? I usually
tried to make them up from other words, like "browser" ---> "page
viewer" and so on. Using loan words like "bIrawSer" or even "browser" I
consider inappropriate.

These are good questions. As far as *Quenya* goes, I've always tried to NOT 
translate proper names ("George Bush", etc), but whenever possible try to 
find a workaround for words such as "browser", and most Quenya linguists are 
the same, at least in that last respect.

>Granted, these issues need not come up until the Wikipedia is created
and editable, but I think it's worth mentioning... That's all, just wanted 
to bring up some constructive criticism.

And I appreciate your criticism. Thanks.

Ron (firsfron on wikipedia) :)