[Wikipedia-l] Re: I want to start a new language... with the code"eg" please.

[Brion Vibber]

Timwi wrote:
> Additionally, to have a Klingon Wikipedia doesn't do any harm.

That is exactly what is in dispute, as a number of people claim that it 
*would* do harm to Wikipedia's reputation. (I personally think it would 
do no more harm than Esperanto -- which already garners the occasional 
smirk or raised eyebrow -- and might well do as much good in recruiting 
contributors. Nonetheless the objection exists and is common, including 
being advanced by the guy who holds the keys and the purse strings. You 
have to convince him, not me.)

> It 
> doesn't force anyone to contribute. Most people who "oppose" the Klingon 
> Wikipedia are merely providing arguments for not contributing to it.

I'm not aware of any such arguments being advanced. Can you give examples?

> The 
> only arguments that actually oppose the introduction of a Klingon 
> Wikipedia are (a) copyright problems (which we've established numerous 
> times isn't an issue)

I would very much appreciate it if you could then establish it for us 
right here. Were Wikipedia run by me alone, lojban would have been added 
years ago; Klingon though has an explicit copyright question about it, 
which I'd need to see answered before endorsing it for a copyleft project.

> and (b) reputation problems (which is a really 
> dumb argument for keeping Toki Pona).

Please don't make strawman arguments. An argument against Klingon is not 
an argument in favor of Toki Pona; most people who make the reputation 
argument probably oppose the inclusion of both languages (and many have).

If you must compare Klingon and Toki Pona, note that because Klingon is 
well known (and oft mocked) and Toki Pona is not, there is much more 
weight to a reputation-based objection against Klingon than one against 
Toki Pona. I don't make this objection, but I recognize that it exists.

>> So, we've put off any further 'young conlang' additions to the main 
>> Wikipedia project pending more conclusive resolution.
> 
> This is unsatisfactory. This is like saying Toki Pona got lucky because 
> it was there first. I think that's an extremely lame excuse for keeping 
> Toki Pona while disallowing Klingon.

That is a literally true account of what happened. And yes, it's 
unsatisfactory. It's even *lame*. Howver, it's 100% factual: until a 
clear decision is set down, the status quo remains.

> Additionally, what is your definition of a "young" conlang? I'm pretty 
> sure that Klingon is at lesat five times as old as Toki Pona.

I'd define it in opposition to "old" conlangs such as Volapük and 
Esperanto (1870s-1880s), Ido and Latino Sine Flexione (1900s), 
Occidental (1920s) and at the young end of the old ones IALA Interlingua 
(1950s). These languages are older than my parents, which counts as old 
enough to me ;) and are either still in active use or of historical 
interest due to their influence in the field.

Klingon dates only to the 1980s, a mere whelp, and additionally is 
primarily an entertainment product owned and packaged by a media 
corporation rather than a general-purpose language intended and promoted 
for international communications, business, education, and daily life.

Anyway, my proposal for sidestepping the issue is creating a side 
project specifically for "young" or "entertainment" or "artistic" or 
"personal" or "frivolous" conlangs. This would enable people interested 
in such things to do them while keeping a lower profile to avoid being 
harassed all the time by the haters out there.

In MeatBall terminology, we want to EnlargeSpace[1] to AvoidConflict. 
This is the same reason we've got Wiktionary and WikiQuotes and 
WikiSource: 'Wikipedia is not a dictionary' but many people *want* to 
work on a dictionary. Working on a dictionary in a sister project is a 
better solution than fighting over every attempt to write a word 
definition-only article on Wikipedia.

Timwi, which would you prefer, given these two options: a 
Klingon-language encyclopedia for the hobbyists interested in it on a 
side project, or neverending fighting *about* one that never comes into 
being?

Anti-Klingonists, which would you prefer, given these two options: a 
Klingon-language encyclopedia in a side project that you never have to 
see or hear about, or neverending fighting *about* one from people who 
just won't shut up about it?

Everybody who doesn't give a dang, which would you prefer: never hearing 
about this stuff again because people are off wikiing, or *neverending 
fighting about hobbyist languages on this list*?

[1] http://www.usemod.com/cgi-bin/mb.pl?EnlargeSpace

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)