[Wikipedia-l] Re: Perl

Cimon Avaro jheiskan at welho.com
Fri Apr 16 21:23:29 UTC 2004

On Fri, 2004-04-16 at 20:10, Brian Corr wrote:
> On Fri Apr 16 09:41:21 UTC 2004 Peter Gervai  wrote
> >On Fri, Apr 16, 2004 at 11:15:14AM +1000, Tim Starling wrote:
> > > fabiform wrote:
> > > >(Perl admitted he made a mistake and said it wouldn't happen again)
> > >
> > > The issue is not whether or not he apologises every time he makes a
> > > mistake. We know that he does apologise regularly. The issue is whether
> > > he will do it again, or something similar. Perl's judgement is not
> > > sufficient, he has to be watched all the time.

This situation occurs on most "small" pedias quite regularly. It is a
_good_ thing that there is an _english-language_ "pedia" to experience
this phenomenon as well...

> >
> >If someone does not feel the responsibility of the power given then he
> >should not have the power itself.
> I completely agree. Being a sysop is not a right, but a responsibility. It 
> also is not a tenured position, and while desysopping should not be done 
> lightly, there has already been a lot of thoughtful discussion about this 
> -- far more than is currently required to make someone a sysop (although I 
> realize a new policy is under consideration).

Wake-up call. Thoughtful discussion != due process. Thoughtful
discussion will often focus on the instance, and not the precedent or
long-term procedure it may engender. We must not fall into teh trap of
writing policy based on one anomalous instance...

> >Irresponsible but helpful people doesn't need sysop power to submit articles
> >and changes. Neutral people doesn't need it either, there is life without
> >power. Sysopship should be *restricted to* careful, responsible people.
> >Preferably proven careful, responsible people. It is a tough goal but 
> >should be
> >tried anyway...
> >
> >I don't know perl and I am not involved. Reading all the mails here he
> >should be desysopped, and stay that way, because he is helpful but neither
> >careful nor responsible. This is valid for anyone using his/her/its power
> >irresponsibly or without maximal possible care.
> Peter is correct here as well. Perl doesn't need to be a sysop to do good 
> work and be helpful in fighting vandalism. And I will note that I opposed 
> Perl/Alex becoming an admin on en: repeatedly because he had shown what I 
> considered poor judgment, duplicity (as well as outright deception) and 
> being unwilling to be more careful and moderate his behavior (despite a 
> willingness to apologize repeatedly). I also opposed his self-nomination on 
> the French Wikipedia (where I am an occasional, but serious, editor) 
> because of his history on en: and his stated reason for wanting adminship: 
> "Je voudrais devine admin pour terminé (assasiné) les vandals comme 
> papotages et micheal." 
> <http://fr.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikip%C3%A9dia:Administrateur&oldid=287542#Aplank>.
> I appreciate that we want to weigh carefully the decision to remove 
> someone's adminship, but it's clear to me that he received it by a 
> carefully planned course of action -- perhaps even "scheming" is not too 
> strong a word here -- and that he has not acted responsibly. While he may 
> end one specific problematic behavior, he often seems to find one that he 
> hasn't been specifically warned about. To me, he obeys the letter of the 
> law, but no its spirit.

It is clear to most people, but unfortunately that does not carry weight
in subsequent considerations, except as supporting evidence. If he is to
be de-sysopped, it must be done due to actions as sysop, not in gaining
the status. I am sorry, but I would defend my worst enemy to this
degree. Anything else would be most detrimental to the wikipedia spirit.

> So I urge that he is desysopped, that the current policy proposal is 
> reviewed by people and adopted, and that Perl can reapply if he wishes, and 
> that the community can make a decision.

I am very disturbed that you would request something so clearly
instance-guided, rather than useful for setting a standard for future
disputes. Sorry, but that is how I Honestly Feel.

> Thanks,
> Brian (Bcorr)

Sorry. Jussi-Ville Heiskanen

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