Sem assunto
Quinta Fevereiro 10 03:51:04 UTC 2011
=20
sense as people from an.wikipedia had previously shown an interest on=20
the development of this chapter.=A0=A0</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"1">=A0</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"1">This message was immediately=A0undone by an admin, us=
er:Manuel=20
Trujillo Berges, on the grounds of it being spam.[2]=A0Another user, user:
Elisardojm, undid that contribution and restored the message,[3] and=20
again user:Manuel Trujillo Berges undid it.[4]=A0Not only that,=A0he also=
=20
blocked=A0user:Elisadorjm three days for spam (without even=A0one=20
warning).[5] User:Millars asked for the opinion of another admin as he=20
disagreed on both the block and the characterization of the news=20
about=A0this new chapter as being spam,=A0receiving in return=A0a response=
=20
that basically said that other admins are not going to contradict=20
user:Manuel Trujillo Berges's decision.[6]</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"1">=A0</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"1">Following this, user:Manuel Trujillo Berges has state=
d unambiguosly
that members of this (or any, I guess, but he especifically mentioned=20
WMES) chapter will be indefinitely blocked if they try to "spam" =
or=20
"troll" again with chapter news.[7][8]</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"1">=A0</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"1">We're the new chapter in the block, but my guess =
is, surely other=20
chapters have faced similar situations in the past? What is the=20
consensus here? Because you can see that admins at an. will not budge on
this one. How should this be treated? How have you dealt with these=20
kind of situations before (people that don't believe chapters are good=
=20
for anything, and are in fact quite hostile to them)? Lots of patience=20
and a steward now and then? :)</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"1">=A0</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"1">I'd appreciate your insights.</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"1">=A0</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"1">Mar=EDa</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"1">=A0</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"1">Wikimedia Espa=F1a</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"1">=A0</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"1">[1] <a href=3D"http://an.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti=
tle=3DDescusi%C3%B3n_Wikipedia:Embaixata&diff=3Dprev&oldid=3D102391=
0" target=3D"_blank">http://an.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3DDescusi%C3=
%B3n_Wikipedia:Embaixata&diff=3Dprev&oldid=3D1023910</a></font></di=
v>
<div><font size=3D"1">=A0</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"1">[2] <a href=3D"http://an.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti=
tle=3DDescusi%C3%B3n_Wikipedia:Embaixata&diff=3Dnext&oldid=3D102391=
0" target=3D"_blank">http://an.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3DDescusi%C3=
%B3n_Wikipedia:Embaixata&diff=3Dnext&oldid=3D1023910</a></font></di=
v>
<div><font size=3D"1">=A0</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"1">[3] <a href=3D"http://an.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti=
tle=3DDescusi%C3%B3n_Wikipedia:Embaixata&diff=3Dnext&oldid=3D102391=
4" target=3D"_blank">http://an.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3DDescusi%C3=
%B3n_Wikipedia:Embaixata&diff=3Dnext&oldid=3D1023914</a></font></di=
v>
<div><font size=3D"1">=A0</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"1">[4] <a href=3D"http://an.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti=
tle=3DDescusi%C3%B3n_Wikipedia:Embaixata&diff=3Dnext&oldid=3D102612=
3" target=3D"_blank">http://an.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3DDescusi%C3=
%B3n_Wikipedia:Embaixata&diff=3Dnext&oldid=3D1026123</a></font></di=
v>
<div><font size=3D"1">=A0</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"1">[5] <a href=3D"http://an.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti=
tle=3DEspezial:Rechistro&type=3Dblock&page=3DUsuario%3AElisardojm" =
target=3D"_blank">http://an.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3DEspezial:Rech=
istro&type=3Dblock&page=3DUsuario%3AElisardojm</a></font></div>
<div><font size=3D"1">=A0</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"1">[6] <a href=3D"http://an.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti=
tle=3DDescusi%C3%B3n_usuario%3AMillars&action=3Dhistorysubmit&diff=
=3D1026876&oldid=3D531052" target=3D"_blank">http://an.wikipedia.org/w/=
index.php?title=3DDescusi%C3%B3n_usuario%3AMillars&action=3Dhistorysubm=
it&diff=3D1026876&oldid=3D531052</a></font></div>
<div><font size=3D"1">=A0</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"1">[7] <a href=3D"http://an.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti=
tle=3DDescusi%C3%B3n_usuario:Willtron&diff=3Dnext&oldid=3D1026843" =
target=3D"_blank">http://an.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=3DDescusi%C3%B3=
n_usuario:Willtron&diff=3Dnext&oldid=3D1026843</a></font></div>
<div><font size=3D"1">=A0</font></div>
<div><font size=3D"1">[8] <a href=3D"http://an.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti=
tle=3DDescusi%C3%B3n_usuario%3AElisardojm&action=3Dhistorysubmit&di=
ff=3D1026137&oldid=3D530822" target=3D"_blank">http://an.wikipedia.org/=
w/index.php?title=3DDescusi%C3%B3n_usuario%3AElisardojm&action=3Dhistor=
ysubmit&diff=3D1026137&oldid=3D530822</a></font></div>
<font size=3D"1"><br><br>[...]</font>
<br><br><font size=3D"1">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br>F=
rom: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">M</b> <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"m=
ailto:kewlshrink em yahoo.es" target=3D"_blank">kewlshrink em yahoo.es</a>></s=
pan><br>
Date: 2 March 2011 13:03<br>Subject: Re: [Chapters] Rights of "no-chap=
ters" (was: What to do when a Wikipedia is hostile to chapters?)<br>To=
: Wikimedia Chapters general discussions <<a href=3D"mailto:chapters em wik=
imedia.ch" target=3D"_blank">chapters em wikimedia.ch</a>><br>
<br><br></font><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div class=3D"im"><div><font size=
=3D"1">...I actually thought they had been (finally) approved. That is not =
the case??</font></div><div><font size=3D"1"><br></font></div><div><font si=
ze=3D"1">Mar=EDa=A0</font></div>
</div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"im"><div><font size=3D"1=
"><br>I
have the same question about the self named "Wikimedia Brasil" (=
real=20
name: Multir=F5es pelo Conhecimento Livre). Why WMF allow those people to=
=20
act and talk in their name?<br></font>
</div><font size=3D"1">_____<br></font><font style=3D"font-family: georgia,=
serif;" size=3D"1"><i>B=E9ria Lima</i></font></div><font size=3D"1"><div cl=
ass=3D"im"><br><a href=3D"http://wikimedia.pt/" target=3D"_blank">Wikimedia=
Portugal</a><br>
(351) 963 953 042<br><br></div><i>Imagine um mundo onde =E9 dada a qualquer=
pessoa a possibilidade de=20
ter livre acesso ao somat=F3rio de todo o conhecimento humano. =C9 isso o=
=20
que estamos a fazer.</i></font>
<font size=3D"1"><br><br><br></font>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><font size=3D"1">2011/3/2 marcos <span dir=3D"lt=
r"><<a href=3D"mailto:tal_tor9 em yahoo.es" target=3D"_blank">tal_tor9 em yaho=
o.es</a>></span><br></font><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding=
-left: 1ex;">
<table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td styl=
e=3D"font-family: inherit; font-style: inherit; font-variant: inherit; font=
-weight: inherit; line-height: inherit; font-size-adjust: inherit; font-str=
etch: inherit;" valign=3D"top">
<font size=3D"1">People
of Amical works well and last for obtain hi aims. But sometimes I=20
cannot allow wondering brings over of the nature of these aims.<br><br>Many=
people out of Spain do not know the real situation of=20
Catalonia: it is an Autonomous Community with a very high level of=20
self-government, with it's own parliament, it's own govern, in that=
the=20
Catalan is a coofficial language together with the Spanish (notice,=20
please, that this not an opinion, but the verification of a fact).</font>
<font size=3D"1"><br><br>Certain sectors of the Catalan society look for ot=
her things, and=20
they 're=A0 in his right, naturally. But instead of adapting to the=20
procedure, they claim that the procedure adapt to them. Probably it is=20
good to ask ourselves why so many insistence...</font>
<font size=3D"1"><br><br>I understand that there are allowed to planned cha=
pters (even=20
chapters in idscussion phase) that they use (with some limit)
the logos and registered trade marks of Wikimedia Foundation. What I do
not understand is that Amical uses indiscriminately, being made pass as
a chapter, when they're rejected expressly by resolution of the=20
ChapCom...</font>
<font size=3D"1"><br><br>In Spain we say: " Or all Moors, or all Chris=
tians" , in other=20
words, the procedure must be equal for the whole world, so if not, not=20
to be just. IMHO.</font>
<font size=3D"1"><br><br>Marcos (aka Marctaltor)<br><br>--- El <b>mar, 1/3/=
11, Andrew Owens <i><<a href=3D"mailto:orderinchaos78 em gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">orderinchaos78 em gmail.com</a>></i></b> escribi=F3:<br></font>
<blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: =
5px; padding-left: 5px;"><font size=3D"1"><br>De: Andrew Owens <<a href=
=3D"mailto:orderinchaos78 em gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">orderinchaos78 em gmail=
.com</a>></font><div>
<font size=3D"1"><br>Asunto: Re: [Chapters] What to do when a Wikipedia is =
hostile to chapters?<br>Para: "Wikimedia Chapters general discussions&=
quot; <<a href=3D"mailto:chapters em wikimedia.ch" target=3D"_blank">chapte=
rs em wikimedia.ch</a>><br>
</font>
</div><font size=3D"1">Fecha: martes, 1 de marzo, 2011 23:18</font><div><di=
v><font size=3D"1"><br><br></font><div><font size=3D"1">That's pretty u=
nfortunate :/ Thanks for sharing that Marcos.<br><br>It's
a
shame (and I am being awfully idealistic here) there isn't a way that=
=20
we can explain to them that we're not interested in politics but about=
=20
growing Wikimedia. If the Aragonese or Catalan communities have funds=20
through the chapter to do projects which advance the cause of free=20
knowledge in their own language, and promote their language and culture,
then everyone benefits. But I suspect for some people these things "r=
un
in the blood", so to speak, so the challenges are much greater.<br><b=
r>kindest regards</font>
<font size=3D"1"><br>Andrew (WM Australia; personal opinion)<br><br></font>=
<div><font size=3D"1">On 2 March 2011 01:52, marcos <span dir=3D"ltr"><<=
a href=3D"mailto:tal_tor9 em yahoo.es" target=3D"_blank">tal_tor9 em yahoo.es</a>=
></span> wrote:<br>
</font>
<blockquote style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(=
204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><table border=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" c=
ellspacing=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td style=3D"font-family: inherit; font-style: =
inherit; font-variant: inherit; font-weight: inherit; line-height: inherit;=
font-size-adjust: inherit; font-stretch: inherit;" valign=3D"top">
<font size=3D"1">Thank
you for your response. It's true, in Spain we have a problem; not so=
=20
much with the catlan speaker people (inside WM - ES=A0 they are and they=20
organize his events in Catalan when they wish it), but with some of the=20
persons who direct certain groups, with which it is impossible to speak.
You send them words and they throw you stones...pearls like " <span s=
tyle=3D"font-style: italic;">WM - ES it is a sack of lies</span> " or =
that some people of WN-ES are "<span style=3D"font-style: italic;">imp=
erlistic</span>" and "<span style=3D"font-style: italic;">cultura=
l genocides</span>". (like in <a href=3D"http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/=
Viquip%C3%A8dia:La_taverna#Wikimedia_Espa.C3.B1a_parla_de_nosaltres" target=
=3D"_blank">http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viquip%C3%A8dia:La_taverna#Wikimed=
ia_Espa.C3.B1a_parla_de_nosaltres</a> )<br>
<br>With them we have lost the hope to speak, because everything
what is not that it exists a chapter WM_CAT for them is not asumible. I
must confess, also, that I have few ones desire of speaking with whom=20
despises me. In short it is one " with me or against me ". This i=
t is=20
the problem that arises when the politics=A0 is mixed by the free=20
knowledge ... and if it`s true thatthe politics is a part( of the free=20
knowledge, the free knowledge must not be politic.</font>
<font size=3D"1"><br><br>Of course, It is my personal opinion, not WM-ES=
9; official position</font>
<font size=3D"1"><br><br>Marcos (aka Marctaltor)<br><br>--- El <b>mar, 1/3/=
11, Andrew Turvey <i><<a href=3D"mailto:andrewrturvey em googlemail.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">andrewrturvey em googlemail.com</a>></i></b> escribi=F3:<br=
></font>
<blockquote style=3D"border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); margin-left: =
5px; padding-left: 5px;"><font size=3D"1"><br>De: Andrew Turvey <<a href=
=3D"mailto:andrewrturvey em googlemail.com" target=3D"_blank">andrewrturvey em go=
oglemail.com</a>><br>
Asunto: Re: [Chapters] What to do when a Wikipedia is hostile to chapters?<=
br>
Para: "Wikimedia Chapters general discussions" <<a href=3D"mai=
lto:chapters em wikimedia.ch" target=3D"_blank">chapters em wikimedia.ch</a>><=
br>Fecha: martes, 1 de marzo, 2011
18:19</font><div><div><font size=3D"1"><br><br></font><div><font size=3D"1=
">Thanks for bring this issue up. I think all chapters, particularly<br>new=
ly established ones, have to establish their credibility and value<br>among=
the Wikimedian communities we are working with. We're lucky in<br>
Britain that our local english-speaking community has shown an<br>enormous =
amount of goodwill and support for the chapter, even from<br>people who are=
n't involved in our activities.<br><br>Minority languages, on the other=
hand, seem to be a very different<br>
experience. We have made several attempts to engage Welsh-speaking<br>Wikim=
edians, for instance, and have had a fairly cool response. The<br>main repl=
y has been along the lines of "why should we join Wikimedia<br>UK, I&#=
39;d rather set up Wikimedia Wales". Of course, minority language<br>
speaking often goes hand in hand with political separatism and we<br>should=
be aware of that, even if we aren't part of that perspective.<br><br>M=
y approach and advice
would always be to try, try and try again. Of<br>course there is a line, a=
nd if that line is crossed repeatedly you<br>would be right to challenge it=
. Maybe not now, though - it would be<br>easier after you have some solid a=
cheivements under your belt and have<br>
more influence locally.<br><br>However, can I bring to your attention anoth=
er issue regarding<br>Wikimedia Espana. The terms "Wikimedia" and=
"Wikipedia" are<br>trademarked words by the Wikimedia Foundation=
and may only be used<br>
with permission. I imagine the situation in Spain is the same as in<br>Brit=
ain, that only the recognised chapter, Wikimedia Espana, has<br>permission =
to use that trademark.<br><br>I've recently noticed that Amical, the as=
sociation of Catalan speaking<br>
Wikimedians, is organising a "GLAM-WIKI" conference in Barcelona =
on<br>March 23rd. It's great that they're doing this event, and it =
shouldn't<br>be discouraged. However, they seem to be advertising the
event,<br>particularly through facebook and twitter, using the name "=
Wikimedia<br>CAT".=A0 This seems unacceptable, and now that we have an=
official<br>Wikimedia chapter covering Catalonia, unnecessary.<br><br>For =
the sake of all Wikimedia chapters everywhere, could you<br>
investigate and take action to correct this situation.<br><br>Regards,<br><=
br>On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 4:34 PM, M <<a href=3D"mailto:kewlshrink em yaho=
o.es" target=3D"_blank">kewlshrink em yahoo.es</a>> wrote:<br>
> Thanks everyone for the many thoughtful responses. :) Apparently,=20
it's not as unique a situation as might be expected. Unfortunately.<br>=
><br>>
It is interesting that several people here place the responsibility=20
entirely on the chapter (find someone from the community to post there,=20
do wikimeetups, do other activities -you do realise that all these imply
reaching out, kinda difficult if you're not allowed to!). And that eve=
n
if no one
here has even suggested that what happened at an.wiki is acceptable=20
on-wiki behavior towards other wikipedians who happen to support a=20
chapter.<br>><br>> It does make one wonder if the people that=20
support chapters, unknowingly, perhaps out of fear of being shown as the
terrible demons (roar!) that only wish to control Wikipedia, tend to=20
allow "abusive" (for lack of a better word) on-wiki conducts that=
they'd
never stand for in any other wiki situations.<br>
><br>> I'm just thinking out loud. :) I do have in mind how=20
Wikimedia Argentina was for all intents and purposes banned from the=20
Spanish Wikipedia VP. Now this. And apparently other chapters have met=20
similar (invisible? psychological?) barriers when trying to reach out to
the communities.<br>
><br>> I'm all for the zen approach, but even at the expense of a=
llowing such barriers to perpetuate?<br>><br>> Cheers,<br>><br>>=
; Mar=EDa<br>><br>> PD: Siska, nice last paragraph
xD<br>><br>> Mensaje enviado desde mi iTouch<br>><br>> El 28/0=
2/2011, a las 11:17, Siska Doviana <<a href=3D"mailto:siska.doviana em wiki=
media.or.id" target=3D"_blank">siska.doviana em wikimedia.or.id</a></font><fon=
t size=3D"1">> escribi=F3:<br>
><br>>> Hullo M,<br>>> It's not new. I remember at one t=
ime Wikimedia Indonesia is denied a<br>>> site notice for announcing =
an ICT Conference by the government where<br>>> WMID receives a chari=
ty "room" and computer for free to train public<br>
>> on how to write wikipedia. Since they deny notice, only 7 people s=
how<br>>> up, in a room with the capacity of 40. Last year, with the =
site<br>>> notice, around 100 people show up in two days.<br>>>=
They way we handle it, we chill, I personally know it is going to have<br>
>> a low turn out. The admin (one that deny site notice) show up to t=
his<br>>> event, and since I was in another
city when getting this report. I<br>>> emailed everyone and pointed =
out to the member that the attitude of<br>>> INSIST on independency b=
etween chapter and wikipedia is okay but<br>>> costly. Namely it can =
cost (WMID) not getting a room for next year<br>
>> because our low audience turn out.<br>>><br>>> Stupid =
is what stupid does, don't contradict, play along and kick ass.<br>>=
> It usually achieve better result.<br>>><br>>> --<br>>&g=
t; Siska Doviana | Direktur Eksekutif (Executive Director) 2011-2012<br>
>> Wikimedia Indonesia<br>>> Cell. +62 816 484 5052<br>>>=
~~~~<br>>> Dukung upaya kami membebaskan pengetahuan:<br>>> <a=
href=3D"http://wikimedia.or.id/wiki/Wikimedia_Indonesia:Donasi" target=3D"=
_blank">http://wikimedia.or.id/wiki/Wikimedia_Indonesia:Donasi</a><br>
>> ______________________________</font><font size=3D"1">____________=
_____<br>>> Chapters mailing list<br>>> <a href=3D"mailto:Chapt=
ers em wikimedia.ch" target=3D"_blank">Chapters em wikimedia.ch</a><br>>> <=
a href=3D"http://lists.wikimedia.ch/listinfo/chapters" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tp://lists.wikimedia.ch/listinfo/chapters</a><br>
><br>> ______________________________</font><font size=3D"1">________=
_________<br>> Chapters mailing list<br>> <a href=3D"mailto:Chapters@=
wikimedia.ch" target=3D"_blank">Chapters em wikimedia.ch</a><br>> <a href=
=3D"http://lists.wikimedia.ch/listinfo/chapters" target=3D"_blank">http://l=
ists.wikimedia.ch/listinfo/chapters</a><br>
______________________________</font><font size=3D"1">_________________<br>=
Chapters mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:Chapters em wikimedia.ch" target=3D=
"_blank">Chapters em wikimedia.ch</a><br><a href=3D"http://lists.wikimedia.ch/=
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pters</a><br>
</font>
</div></div></div></blockquote></td></tr></tbody></table><font size=3D"1"><=
br><br>______________________________</font>
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pters</a><br>
</font>
</blockquote></div><font size=3D"1"><br></font>
</div><font size=3D"1"><br></font></div></div><font size=3D"1">-----Adjunto=
en l=EDnea a continuaci=F3n-----</font><div><font size=3D"1"><br><br></fon=
t><div><font size=3D"1">______________________________</font><font size=3D"=
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>______________________________</font>
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pters</a><br>
</font>
</blockquote></div><font size=3D"1"><br></font>
</div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><font size=3D"1"><span>__=
_____________________________________________</span><br><span>Chapters mail=
ing list</span><br><span><a href=3D"mailto:Chapters em wikimedia.ch" target=3D=
"_blank">Chapters em wikimedia.ch</a></span><br>
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ank">http://lists.wikimedia.ch/listinfo/chapters</a></span></font></div></b=
lockquote></div><font size=3D"1"><br>______________________________</font><=
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