[Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

Thu Sep 5 17:50:44 UTC 2013

Well, it doesn't matter to me if it is re-invention or not.
To me the important thing is to put such an instance in action.
And I know for a fact that it doesn't function today since I discussed this question with numerous people in the Wiki-org (like the stewards, the ombudsman etc.)

That you are independent doesn't mean that you are not accustomed to how the Wikis work, I would guess that it actually is a prerequisite that you are. It just means that you take a step aside and are no longer actively involved in any Wiki and that you understand your position as an independent arbitrator. This process is handled without difficulties by other organizations.

I am involved in work to counteract mobbing on the Internet in general and there are the Wikis today absolutely a part of the problem.

Regards,
Lars Gardenius

________________________________
 Von: Fred Bauder <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>
An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org> 
Gesendet: 19:14 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself

That is just a re-invention of the Arbitration Committee. People from an
external source nearly always have a fatal flaw; they don't understand
how Wikipedia works. More informed people could man the arbitration
committee, but that is a matter of documenting what the existing
committee does and its effect and educating administrators, potential
candidates and the existing committee members on the practical effect of
their decisions.

Fred

> Well that is pretty easy: that Wiki-org will follow the example put up by
> many countries, companies and schools.
>
> Create an independent instance (i.e. in this case independent of the
> Wikis) that you can turn to when you are offended, insulted, mobbed,
> harassed or in any way mistreated by people in the Wikis.
>
> Since so many seems to misunderstand this question, it is not meant to
> handle questions about content or policies in the separate Wikis, but
> only about the normal human behaviour that we have agreed on shall be
> present in a society (today not including the Wikis).
>
> It is also important that this independent instance shall be responsible
> for that the behaviour in the Wikis are within the boundaries of the
> outside society, and therefore also has the right to intervene in a Wiki,
> when members of that Wiki cross that boundary.
>
> Today there is an increasing problem with mobbing on the Internet. I
> don't want the Wikis to be an enclave where this is still allowed.
>
> Regards,
> Lars Gardenius
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>  Von: Fred Bauder <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>
> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> Gesendet: 16:04 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from itself
>
>
> Lars,
>
> Please put your cards on the table. What are your suggested changes?
>
> Fred
>
>> I am also more interested in processes than discussing special cases. I
>> think that was also the meaning of Rui Correia's letter starting this
>> thread.
>>
>> To me there is obvious that there are flaws in the construction of the
>> Wiki-organization when it comes to mistreatment and mobbing of users. I
>> have discussed this question both with the stewards and the ombudsman,
>> both tell me that they can't intervene in a Wiki, even if they
>> themselves
>> object to the behaviour of certain members of that Wiki.
>>
>> That means that there is no instance outside of the specific Wiki to
>> which a harassed and mobbed user can turn. That is I think an
>> structural
>> error that I believe you don't usually find in any other big
>> organization.
>>
>> I have also studied these pages where "dispute resolution" is handled.
>> They do not impress me much. I agree with Rui Correia, it is the same
>> people quarreling about the same things and the result is often nil.
>>
>> So I still think there need to be structural change to handle this type
>> of problems.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Lars Gardenius
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>>  Von: "cro0016 at gmail.com" <cro0016 at gmail.com>
>> An: Lars Gardenius <lars.gardenius at yahoo.de>
>> CC: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>;
>> "fredbaud at fairpoint.net" <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>
>> Gesendet: 15:15 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
>> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from
>> itself
>>
>>
>>
>> I've worked extensively with dispute resolution on English Wikipedia (I
>> have conducted surveys and so on). If you have specific trends I would
>> welcome seeing them (isolated cases where one side is unhappy with the
>> result is not necessarily a sign the process is flawed, so I am more
>> interested in overall trends but would welcome your opinion.)
>>
>>
>> Steve ZhangSent from my iPad
>>
>> On 05/09/2013, at 10:59 PM, Lars Gardenius <lars.gardenius at yahoo.de>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Sorry, but I have seen several instances where it certainly doesn't
>> work.
>> Not in a way you would expect in a normal society anyhow.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Lars Gardenius
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>________________________________
>>> Von: "cro0016 at gmail.com" <cro0016 at gmail.com>
>>>An: Lars Gardenius <lars.gardenius at yahoo.de>; Wikimedia Mailing List
>>> <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>>CC: "fredbaud at fairpoint.net" <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>; Wikimedia
>>> Mailing
>>> List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>>Gesendet: 14:22 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
>>>Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from
>>> itself
>>>
>>>
>>>I wouldn't say dispute resolution has never worked, nor does it not
>>> work
>>> now. It could use improvement, but the same could be said about
>>> everything (and like most things, shortages of volunteers make things
>>> harder)
>>>
>>>Steve Zhang
>>>Sent from my iPad
>>>
>>>On 05/09/2013, at 6:18 PM, Lars Gardenius <lars.gardenius at yahoo.de>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> No I don't think it is being addressed. Not in a serious way.
>>>>
>>>> That "Wikipedia:Dispute resolution" mirrors a very naive approach in
>>>> a
>>>> worldwide organization. It has never worked before and it doesn't
>>>> work
>>>> now.
>>>>
>>>> To imagine that groups of people will not try and manoeuvre out
>>>> persons that they don't like is very naive.
>>>> That has not happened before in the history of mankind and the
>>  Wikis are no exception.
>>>>
>>>> Today noone is accountable for what they do to other
>>>> Wiki-contributors, they are not even identifiable since they hide
>>>> behind nome de guerres. Stewards have no authority to protect users
>>>> from abuses and the same goes for the Ombudsman. (see also Rui
>>>> Correia's email)
>>>>
>>>> So if the Wikis want to be a safe place for children and old folks
>>>> alike, and that everybody shall be able to contribute on equal
>>>> conditions, a more realistic organization to protect the users must
>>>> be
>>>> put in place.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Lars Gardenius
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>> Von: Fred Bauder <fredbaud at fairpoint.net>
>>>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>>> Gesendet: 1:16 Donnerstag, 5.September 2013
>>>> Betreff: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from
>>>> itself
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It is addressed but by a rather complicated and demanding process.
>>>> See
>>>> Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Not really workable for new users who
>>>> bump
>>>> up against well-established users who have bad habits, or have
>>>> learned
>>>> that nasty behavior pays off in being able to control content.
>>>>
>>>> Fred
>>>>
>>>>> I think you are completely right and it is a big problem in the
>>>>> Wiki-world that is not being addressed by anyone in a leading
>>>>> position.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Lars Gardenius
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>   Von: Rui Correia <correia.rui at gmail.com>
>>>>> An: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
>>>>> Gesendet: 23:08 Mittwoch, 4.September 2013
>>>>> Betreff: [Wikimedia-l] Please, let's save the Wikipedia - from
>>>>> itself
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Greetings to All
>>>>>
>>>>> Let me start by saying that I don't do much here at the WP, not
>>>>> compared
>>>>> to
>>>>> people who make hundreds of edits a week. I would love to, have a
>>>>> long
>>>>> list
>>>>> of "to-do", but unfortunately time is not on my side.
>>>>>
>>>>> In my limited involvemet here, I have seen many a good editor leave
>>>>> the
>>>>> project. Mostly, people leave because they can't take it anymore
>>>>> having
>>>>> to
>>>>>
>>  fight the 'blocks' of defenders that coalesce around certain topics.
>>>>>
>>>>> In itself, though not very healthy, such blocks forming around topis
>>>>> is
>>>>> fine. What is not fine is that if any issue gets referred to a
>>>>> higher
>>>>> process for a resolution, it is often the same people grouping of
>>>>> people
>>>>> previously involved in disputes on the same topic who come to the
>>>>> resolution forum to issue a decision. However, it is always the
>>>>> 'outsider'
>>>>> that loses. He gets acused of everything under the sun, and gets
>>>>> 'good
>>>>> advice' from supposedly neutral editors, urging him to calm down, to
>>>>> temper
>>>>> his language etc. It is like trying to point out that the earth is
>>>>> round
>>>>> at
>>>>> a monthly meetng of the fat-earthers. That is not healthy and is
>>>>> making
>>>>> the
>>>>> WP processes look like a kangaroo court run by a
>>  cabal.
>>>>>
>>>>> And I expect pretty much the same reaction to this email.
>>>>>
>>>>> I pointed out in an ealier email to this list the difficulty that
>>>>> one
>>>>> encounters when you include something negative about certain big
>>>>> corporations. I was stoned and made to feel that I was wrong and
>>>>> everbody
>>>>> else was right. The reaction was tantamount to a chorus of "yes, we
>>>>> know
>>>>> there are problems, but don't say it out loud, someone might hear
>>>>> you!".
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's for argument's say that I was wrong. But - more importantantly
>>>>> -
>>>>> was
>>>>> anything done to investigate what I was saying? What if there are
>>>>> legions
>>>>> out there paid to sanitise the pages of big corporations? And we
>>>>> know
>>>>> that
>>>>> they exist, and that WP has taken up the issue as in here,
>>>>> http://nick-xomba-ceo.xomba.com/microsoft_accused_of_paying_blogger_to_alter_wikipedia_articles
>>>>>
>>>>> I made a silly remark on a Talk page about the choice of the word
>>>>> "downgrade" to refer to people using Windows 8 who wanted to go back
>>>>> to
>>>>> XP.
>>>>> For a failed product, by Microsoft's own admission, going back to XP
>>>>> is
>>>>> an
>>>>> upgrade, going back to sanity, not a downgrade.
>>>>>
>>>>> I was first accused of trolling, then something else, then of
>>>>> offending
>>>>> the
>>>>> entire community of users of Windows 8. The editor who is adamant -
>>>>> not
>>>>> the
>>>>> first time - to purge ant-MS from the talkpage violated the 3RR, but
>>>>> nothing gets done about it. I reported the 3RR, and it was
>>>>> immediately
>>>>> closed,
>>  labelled as being relatiatory. There is a backlog of issues on
>>>>> that
>>>>> page, but my entry was closed within minutes.
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring#User:Codename_Lisa_reported_by_User:Rui_Gabriel_Correia_.28Result:_Closed.29
>>>>>
>>>>> It was closed, claiming that it was already being addressed
>>>>> elsewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, I too will consider my stay here. Like I said right at the top,
>>>>> I
>>>>> don't
>>>>> do much here, so I am certain I will not even be missed. I edit in
>>>>> eight
>>>>> languages, small little bits here and there. I participated in a
>>>>> number
>>>>> of
>>>>> initiaves on the development of Chapters in Africa and am
>>  happy to see
>>>>> that
>>>>> things are moving. I had the honour and privilege to meet Jimmy
>>>>> Wales
>>>>> in
>>>>> South Africa and to discuss a few things relating to WP in Africa.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, it is time to wind down anr retire into a corner. I am busy with
>>>>> a
>>>>> novel, I am sure that is where I should invest my time and energy.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sincere regards to all, happy editing
>>>>>
>>>>> Rui Correia
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> _________________________
>>>>> Rui Correia
>>>>> Advocacy, Human Rights, Media and Language Work Consultant
>>>>> Bridge to Angola - Angola Liaison Consultant
>>>>>
>>>>> Mobile Number in South Africa +27 74 425 4186
>>>>> NÃºmero de TelemÃ³vel na Ãfrica do Sul +27 74 425 4186
>>>>> _______________
>>>>>
>>  _______________________________________________
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