[Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo

Denny Vrandečić denny.vrandecic at wikimedia.de
Sun Jun 2 07:27:37 UTC 2013

Peter, we stand up to big bullies. As big as they get. But in this case, I
cannot see the WTO bullying us. Their terms are very reasonable in my
opinion, and I am grateful to the legal team for handling this situation
this well.

But in this case, we are talking about either changing a non-established
logo - something that has been discussed anyway before in the community, as
SJ pointed out - or risking to spend donation money on a very expensive
legal battle that, frankly, does not look very promising. And if the court
decides against us, which simply looks probable, we would need to change it

Or, to put it differently, Peter: what other programs paid by our budget
would you curtail in order to try defending the Wikivoyage logo? Should we
cut down on development? On supporting chapters? Look at FDC and IEG, and
simply weight the projects enabled by that money against keeping the
Wikivoyage logo? Is the logo really worth that much?

Our movement fights against big bullies. Be it in the legislative branch,
where we use protest and lobbying, be it in the judicial branch, where we
defend volunteers in court, be it in the executive branch, where our
methods are cooperation and mutual support.

But I fail to see what the benefit of this particular fight would be in
reaching our mission. The costs, on the other hand, can be drastic.

2013/6/2 Peter Southwood <peter.southwood at telkomsa.net>

> So we stand up to small bullies, by not to big ones.
> Nice to know where the line is drawn when it comes to principles.
> Cheers,
> Peter
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Craig Franklin" <
> cfranklin at halonetwork.net>
> To: "Wikimedia Mailing List" <wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.**org<wikimedia-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> >
> Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2013 5:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Wikivoyage logo
>  On 2 June 2013 00:22, MZMcBride <z at mzmcbride.com> wrote:
>>  Craig Franklin wrote:
>>> >I'm sure that the legal team has done their homework on this and would
>>> >not
>>> >have made this recommendation unless they felt that the WTO had a
>>> >credible
>>> >argument.  Asking the Foundation to play chicken with the lawyers of a
>>> >major international organisation over a trademark claim on a relatively
>>> >new and easily replaced logo of ours does not offer a very good
>>> >risk/reward ratio in my view.
>>> You mean "has done their homework on this this time," right? The General
>>> Counsel position is one of the oldest in the Wikimedia Foundation and the
>>> Legal and Community Advocacy team certainly existed before the previous
>>> Wikivoyage logo contest. If this were an issue, you'd think someone
>>> would've said something six months ago. And, of course, there's no
>>> shortage of trademark, patent, or copyright trolls in the world. I've
>>> seen
>>> both logos and while they're obviously similar, I'm sure there are a
>>> great
>>> number of lawyers who could make a number of arguments as to why there's
>>> no real issue here. Anyone can send a cease and desist letter, right?
>> The WMF Legal team are good, but they're not *that* good.  I'm sure if
>> Geoff and the gang were capable of foretelling the future to see if they'd
>> get issued with a cease-and-desist, they'd be spending their lottery
>> winnings in the Caribbean rather than dealing with trademark issues.
>> There are also at least a few Wikivoyagers who are concerned that the
>>> active participants of Wikivoyage weren't properly enfranchised during
>>> the
>>> last logo contest. That is, there's a concern that the people most
>>> involved with Wikivoyage will get drowned out by the much larger
>>> Wikimedia
>>> community in any contest of this nature.
>> Obviously this is a valid concern, but that's best dealt with by making
>> sure that the best process is in place for the logo competition, not by
>> complaining about something that, lets face it, is not going to change.
>> Obviously, for those that were unhappy with the last logo process, this is
>> an opportunity to have an improved contest this time around.
>>> I would think some of these issues would be of concern to you. This isn't
>>> about asking anyone to play chicken. It's about ensuring that communities
>>> are free to choose their own identity.
>> Well, obviously I'd be happy for them to pick whatever identity, so long
>> as
>> it's not infringing on a trademark.  In other words, they can't have the
>> Golden Arches or Mickey Mouse ears! :-).
>> More seriously though, while I suppose the WMF might conceivably be
>> eventually victorious in court on this sort of issue, the expense would be
>> enormous and the legal team's time is much better spent on things other
>> than fighting battles over non-core principles with international
>> organisations.  I also suspect that the WTO has a fair bit more cash to
>> splash around on fancy lawyers to fight this than we do.  It's not a nice
>> situation to be in obviously, but it's better than the Foundation having
>> to
>> waste its money fighting this in court.
>> Cheers,
>> Craig
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