[Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode
Анатолій Гончаров
ahonc at wikimediaukraine.org.ua
Sun Aug 18 16:32:44 UTC 2013
About the second mailing list: there was request to create one:
https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=52947 but this variant was
rejected by Board
2013/8/18 <wikimedia-l-request ÎÁ lists.wikimedia.org>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode
> (Pavlo Shevelo)
> 2. Re: WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode
> (Manuel Schneider)
> 3. Re: WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode
> (Federico Leva (Nemo))
> 4. Re: WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode
> (Pavlo Shevelo)
> 5. Re: WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode
> (Manuel Schneider)
> 6. Re: WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode
> (Ziko van Dijk)
> 7. Re: WMUA chapter mailing list switched to 'read-only' mode
> (Pavlo Shevelo)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 17:36:24 +0300
> From: Pavlo Shevelo <pavlo.shevelo ÎÁ gmail.com>
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <Wikimedia-l ÎÁ lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to
> 'read-only' mode
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAE4eYtO0u6ybWELdzrJu+2qxRRkJgeSSm6WfYq+VcV53eg+eag ÎÁ mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> According to WMUA Board decision [1] from now on (today morning) and for
> unlimited time period the one and only WMUA chapter mailing list [
> WikimediaUA] [2] (which is very much like [Wikimedia-I]) is switched to
> read-only mode for all community members but Board (7 persons) and Audit
> Committee (+3 persons), who saved full access for them.
>
> It's like conversion of [Wikimedia-l] into [WikimediaAnnounce-l], but with
> much more severe (only for WMF Board announcements) limitations.
>
> Interestingly (if somebody prefer) that moderators of [WikimediaUA] mailing
> list from the times long before the said ruling are:
> * 2 Board members (Board Chair and Executive director)
> and
> * 1 member of Audit Committee.
> All moderators were appointed (no elections!) by ...Board decision.
>
> As for now my question is pretty simple: is there any precedents known,
> when chapter Board do some alike rulings? Does it seems appropriate?
>
> If anybody will be interested in context (bigger picture etc.) that is why
> it was done so (including formal and real causes & motivations), this
> person will have to go deep into struggle:
>
> * for openness ('clearness') of the WMUA Board;
> * against unethical (and so, in that meaning immoral) behaviour of some
> of WMUA Board members
> * ...etc.
>
> and [3] and [4] are some entry points for that ...'deepness'.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Pavlo Shevelo
> (my WPnick is the same :))
>
> [1]
>
> http://ua.wikimedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D1%96%D1%88%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8F_%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BB%D1%96%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8F_%E2%84%9626/2013_%D0%B2%D1%96%D0%B4_18_%D1%81%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BF%D0%BD%D1%8F_2013
>
> [2] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaua
> [3] See the Talk page for [1]
> [4]
>
> http://ua.wikimedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%96%D0%BA%D1%96%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%96%D0%B0:%D0%9F%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB_%D1%81%D0%BF%D1%96%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8#.D0.A9.D0.BE.D0.B4.D0.BE_.D1.80.D1.96.D1.88.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.BD.D1.8F_.D0.9F.D1.80.D0.B0.D0.B2.D0.BB.D1.96.D0.BD.D0.BD.D1.8F_.E2.84.9626.2F2013_.D0.B2.D1.96.D0.B4_18_.D1.81.D0.B5.D1.80.D0.BF.D0.BD.D1.8F_2013
>
> Sorry, all references are in Ukrainian (with Ukrainian titles, that's why
> URLs are so long) but Google translate works reasonably well to give the
> idea, at least for [1], which is most important
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 17:03:12 +0200
> From: Manuel Schneider <manuel.schneider ÎÁ wikimedia.ch>
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l ÎÁ lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to
> 'read-only' mode
> Message-ID: <5210E230.6020908 ÎÁ wikimedia.ch>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Dear Pavlo,
>
> as that list is dedicated to chapter business, the chapter may decide
> how to use that list.
>
> For open discussions of the ukranian language Wikimedia projects there
> is WikiUK-l:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiuk-l
>
> If there is a real need for a seperate list to discuss chapter business
> which is open, not the project list and not controlled by the board I am
> sure that the folks at WMF are happy to help with that. Maybe the new
> list could then become WikimediaUA-l and the current WikimediaUA-l will
> become WikimediaUA-Announce-l or similar. But this should be discussed
> by the concerned community.
>
>
> /Manuel
> --
> Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 17:45:48 +0200
> From: "Federico Leva (Nemo)" <nemowiki ÎÁ gmail.com>
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l ÎÁ lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to
> 'read-only' mode
> Message-ID: <5210EC2C.5010907 ÎÁ gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> Pavlo Shevelo, 18/08/2013 16:36:
> > As for now my question is pretty simple: is there any precedents known,
> > when chapter Board do some alike rulings? Does it seems appropriate?
>
> Sorry, but I think these questions are flawed. A better question is: do
> the member of the chapter have a suitable and working place where to
> discuss among themselves to carry out their duties and rights as members
> of the chapters, as defined by the bylaws?
> (One is not always easy to set up.)
>
> >
> > If anybody will be interested in context (bigger picture etc.) that is
> why
> > it was done so (including formal and real causes & motivations), this
> > person will have to go deep into struggle:
> >
> > * for openness ('clearness') of the WMUA Board;
> > * against unethical (and so, in that meaning immoral) behaviour of some
> > of WMUA Board members
> > * ...etc.
>
> So that's *the* mailing list for all the internal discussions of the
> board? If it's public, then these is indeed higher "transparency" than
> in most chapters (not that this is necessarily a good thing); on the
> other hand it does not replace an all-members discussion space.
>
> Nemo
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 18:47:40 +0300
> From: Pavlo Shevelo <pavlo.shevelo ÎÁ gmail.com>
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l ÎÁ lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to
> 'read-only' mode
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAE4eYtPFpxD70946YDZzR-d0pKGNi5ae-s-Ptz2-bmjFhftKPw ÎÁ mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Dear Manuel,
>
> Thanks for your swift comment & advice, I appreciate (while I'm one of the
> administrators at WikiUK-l, by the way :) ).
>
> Forgive me for missing the detail which was obvious for me - I'm WMUA
> member (from the moment of it legal registration back in 2009) so I'm from
> inside WMUA as a project as well as 40+ more WMUA members (beside Board and
> AC). In your wording - I'm well inside of "chapter business", the issue is
> with the missing (or invalid?) process "the chapter may decide how to use
> that list".
>
> That was clear for me (and explained by me in local discussions - in said
> mailing list and on community Portal) that if Board needs something only
> for announcements ("WikimediaUA-Announce-l or similar"), they should
> contact "folks at WMF" and arrange new, additional list (like WMF Board did
> some years after creation of 'universal' list).
>
> In addition to that nobody never settled in proper way, that [WikimediaUA]
> is "the project list" (if WMUA is not the project by itself) and, moreover,
> it should be "controlled by the board" to that extent as WMUA Board it
> defined and settled for themselves.
>
> So I remain with my question about
> is there any precedents known, when chapter Board do some alike rulings?
> Does it seems appropriate?
>
> All more advices how to create alternative mailing list with help of:
> * "folks at WMF"
> * automatic services/stuff at Google (like Google groups etc.)
> will be appreciated, but it's not the main focus of my interest.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Pavlo
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 6:03 PM, Manuel Schneider <
> manuel.schneider ÎÁ wikimedia.ch> wrote:
>
> > Dear Pavlo,
> >
> > as that list is dedicated to chapter business, the chapter may decide
> > how to use that list.
> >
> > For open discussions of the ukranian language Wikimedia projects there
> > is WikiUK-l:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikiuk-l
> >
> > If there is a real need for a seperate list to discuss chapter business
> > which is open, not the project list and not controlled by the board I am
> > sure that the folks at WMF are happy to help with that. Maybe the new
> > list could then become WikimediaUA-l and the current WikimediaUA-l will
> > become WikimediaUA-Announce-l or similar. But this should be discussed
> > by the concerned community.
> >
> >
> > /Manuel
> > --
> > Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> > Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > Wikimedia-l ÎÁ lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request ÎÁ lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 17:58:13 +0200
> From: Manuel Schneider <manuel.schneider ÎÁ wikimedia.ch>
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l ÎÁ lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to
> 'read-only' mode
> Message-ID: <5210EF15.4080501 ÎÁ wikimedia.ch>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> Am 18.08.2013 17:47, schrieb Pavlo Shevelo:
> > is there any precedents known, when chapter Board do some alike rulings?
>
> all precedence known to me have been much less restrictive actions, such
> as the WikimediaCH-l list to become a closed list due to some issues we
> had with private information (unwillingly) disclosed on that list.
> Nobody questioned that change.
>
> > Does it seems appropriate?
>
> My personal opinion is that the board may decide so, under consideration
> of what Nemo questioned: That the chapters community / members have an
> appropriate place to conduct their work. This may be disputed as it was
> the formerly open and public list which has been closed but it could
> also be considered that WikiUK-l could act as such place as well.
> So from my point of view it is really up to the community at
> WikimediaUA-l and WikiUK-l whether WikiUK-l is an appropriate
> replacement or if another list is needed due to this change.
>
> /Manuel
> --
> Wikimedia CH - Verein zur Förderung Freien Wissens
> Lausanne, +41 (21) 34066-22 - www.wikimedia.ch
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 18:04:40 +0200
> From: Ziko van Dijk <vandijk ÎÁ wmnederland.nl>
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l ÎÁ lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to
> 'read-only' mode
> Message-ID:
> <CAGC3U7jf8WuFQCgd=
> m3bdFyMuXmrkYTrSzx6wQJoo69URy6kvw ÎÁ mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hello,
> This is actually a good question for
>
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Chapters_Association/Research/Survey_1
> How do chapter boards make use of the board mailing list, and how about the
> general mailing list of the association. Actually, the mailing list of
> WMNL, Wikimedianl-l, doesn't show very much activity. Everyone can join and
> post. But I can imagine scenarios in which a chapter decides to change
> that.
> Kind regards
> Ziko
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Dr. Ziko van Dijk
> voorzitter / president Wikimedia Nederland
>
> Vereniging Wikimedia Nederland
> Postbus 167
> 3500 AD Utrecht
> http://wikimedia.nl
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> 2013/8/18 Pavlo Shevelo <pavlo.shevelo ÎÁ gmail.com>
>
> > According to WMUA Board decision [1] from now on (today morning) and for
> > unlimited time period the one and only WMUA chapter mailing list [
> > WikimediaUA] [2] (which is very much like [Wikimedia-I]) is switched to
> > read-only mode for all community members but Board (7 persons) and Audit
> > Committee (+3 persons), who saved full access for them.
> >
> > It's like conversion of [Wikimedia-l] into [WikimediaAnnounce-l], but
> with
> > much more severe (only for WMF Board announcements) limitations.
> >
> > Interestingly (if somebody prefer) that moderators of [WikimediaUA]
> mailing
> > list from the times long before the said ruling are:
> > * 2 Board members (Board Chair and Executive director)
> > and
> > * 1 member of Audit Committee.
> > All moderators were appointed (no elections!) by ...Board decision.
> >
> > As for now my question is pretty simple: is there any precedents known,
> > when chapter Board do some alike rulings? Does it seems appropriate?
> >
> > If anybody will be interested in context (bigger picture etc.) that is
> why
> > it was done so (including formal and real causes & motivations), this
> > person will have to go deep into struggle:
> >
> > * for openness ('clearness') of the WMUA Board;
> > * against unethical (and so, in that meaning immoral) behaviour of some
> > of WMUA Board members
> > * ...etc.
> >
> > and [3] and [4] are some entry points for that ...'deepness'.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Pavlo Shevelo
> > (my WPnick is the same :))
> >
> > [1]
> >
> >
> http://ua.wikimedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D1%96%D1%88%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8F_%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BB%D1%96%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8F_%E2%84%9626/2013_%D0%B2%D1%96%D0%B4_18_%D1%81%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BF%D0%BD%D1%8F_2013
> >
> > [2] https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaua
> > [3] See the Talk page for [1]
> > [4]
> >
> >
> http://ua.wikimedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D1%96%D0%BA%D1%96%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%96%D0%B0:%D0%9F%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BB_%D1%81%D0%BF%D1%96%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B8#.D0.A9.D0.BE.D0.B4.D0.BE_.D1.80.D1.96.D1.88.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.BD.D1.8F_.D0.9F.D1.80.D0.B0.D0.B2.D0.BB.D1.96.D0.BD.D0.BD.D1.8F_.E2.84.9626.2F2013_.D0.B2.D1.96.D0.B4_18_.D1.81.D0.B5.D1.80.D0.BF.D0.BD.D1.8F_2013
> >
> > Sorry, all references are in Ukrainian (with Ukrainian titles, that's why
> > URLs are so long) but Google translate works reasonably well to give the
> > idea, at least for [1], which is most important
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list
> > Wikimedia-l ÎÁ lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-request ÎÁ lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2013 19:26:36 +0300
> From: Pavlo Shevelo <pavlo.shevelo ÎÁ gmail.com>
> To: "Federico Leva (Nemo)" <nemowiki ÎÁ gmail.com>
> Cc: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l ÎÁ lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] WMUA chapter mailing list switched to
> 'read-only' mode
> Message-ID:
> <CAE4eYtMv7dHEdUoCqwqShci0aTzFT=D6cjJvwvULJCOJ=
> XYyUg ÎÁ mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Oh Federico (or should I use Nemo as the name? :) ),
>
> Seemingly you almost grasped (groked) what I'm talking about and that
> "almost" is caused by my problems in English (it's not my native language
> and I suffer from lack of practice :( ).
>
> So we need some more clarification and let me start from the bottom up (as
> of the text of your mail):
>
> > that's *the* mailing list for all the internal discussions of the board?
> > If it's public, then these is indeed higher "transparency" than in most
> chapters (not that this is necessarily a good thing);
>
> Definitely NO, while we think (not only dream) about that level of
> transparency. As I'm one of the believers, that "this is necessarily a good
> thing", I dared even to propose that several times to Board members.
>
> But from the very beginning of WMUA the Board has separate mailing list
> (without archive, what is significant in some situations like change of
> Board members) and in addition they build Board' wikisite which is closed
> as well (only AC members ver granted by access - after long struggle so as
> sorta gifted compromise, while it was never accepted by the community).
> So said mailing list they ...occupy only for "Urbi et orbi" purposes or it
> will be more exact to say only for "urbi" (strictly confidential for WMUA).
>
> > on the other hand it does not replace an all-members discussion space.
>
> YES it does replace or, to be more exact, "all-members discussion space" is
> converted to Board announcement place (all others but AC is in "sit down
> and listen" mode strictly).
>
> > better question is: do the member of the chapter have a suitable and
> working place where to discuss among themselves to carry out their duties
> and rights as members of the chapter
>
> Since said ruling - not in the mailing list(s), while community Portal
> survived (yet? the administrators there are ...surprise - Board and AC
> members as well). As we all know discussions on the wiki (like Portals,
> Village pumps etc.) doesn't eliminate the need of mailing list.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 18, 2013 at 6:45 PM, Federico Leva (Nemo) <nemowiki ÎÁ gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Pavlo Shevelo, 18/08/2013 16:36:
> >
> > As for now my question is pretty simple: is there any precedents known,
> >> when chapter Board do some alike rulings? Does it seems appropriate?
> >>
> >
> > Sorry, but I think these questions are flawed. A better question is: do
> > the member of the chapter have a suitable and working place where to
> > discuss among themselves to carry out their duties and rights as members
> of
> > the chapters, as defined by the bylaws?
> > (One is not always easy to set up.)
> >
> >
> >
> >> If anybody will be interested in context (bigger picture etc.) that is
> why
> >> it was done so (including formal and real causes & motivations), this
> >> person will have to go deep into struggle:
> >>
> >> * for openness ('clearness') of the WMUA Board;
> >> * against unethical (and so, in that meaning immoral) behaviour of some
> >> of WMUA Board members
> >> * ...etc.
> >>
> >
> > So that's *the* mailing list for all the internal discussions of the
> > board? If it's public, then these is indeed higher "transparency" than in
> > most chapters (not that this is necessarily a good thing); on the other
> > hand it does not replace an all-members discussion space.
> >
> > Nemo
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list
> Wikimedia-l ÎÁ lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>
>
> End of Wikimedia-l Digest, Vol 113, Issue 45
> ********************************************
>
--
Анатолій Гончаров
mailto:ahonc ÎÁ wikimediaukraine.org.ua
ICQ: 364-176-156
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