[Foundation-l] Texts deleted on French Wikisource
yannfo at gmail.com
Thu Jun 3 04:18:08 UTC 2010
2010/6/3 Mike Godwin <mnemonic at gmail.com>:
> On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 2:15 PM, Nathan <nawrich at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Yann suggests that he (and the Wikisource community) did not know
>> about the takedown in a timely manner; anyone not watching the files
>> or the deletion logs might have missed it if the only note was in the
>> deletion log.
> But of course, the deletion log was not the only notice. And Yann Forget
> knew about the deletions at the time they occurred.
>> If you
>> can't communicate certain facts during negotiations, why not do so
> Sometimes you can. I just did. But of course sometimes you can't, for
> reasons I've already outlined. (There's nothing magical about the passage of
> time that eliminates the disincentive effect of disclosing negotiations.)
>> There is some tension built into this general issue, though; Cary
>> advises that the fr.wikisource project needs to make its own decisions
>> about what content to allow, based on a local interpretation of
>> applicable law -- and then the Foundation deletes content without (a)
>> providing advice on what is acceptable and what isn't and (b) without
>> referring to the local decisions the project was advised to take.
> I'm not sure what advice you think it is even theoretically possible that
> the Foundation could have offered. Are you suggesting that the Foundation
> is acting as the lawyer for everyone who posts content to Wikisource? There
> are obvious reasons that is not a sustainable or feasible model.
> You seem to have the impression that the Foundation staff directly deleted
> the content. Actually, I shared the list with Cary, who shared the list with
> community members who implemented the takedown. (I deleted no content
> myself.) So you can see why the whole notion that the takedown wasn't shared
> with the community seems flatly wrong to me. We absolutely engaged
> community members in implementing the takedown.
That's not exactly true. The deletions were done by a steward which is
not a contributor to French Wikisource.
> Yann seems to suggest that
> our actions have been some kind of big secret. The reality, however, is that
> we did nothing in secret, and that Yann in fact has known what we did for
> quite a while now. We even made it trivially easy to contact Gallimard and
> complain about the takedown. But I do understand that it is easier to
> complain about WMF than it is to pursue Gallimard directly, even though
> doing the latter might be a more effective choice.
> I'll note also that the real complaint, as I perceive it, isn't really that
> we didn't communicate what we were doing. The real complaint is that we
> actually complied with a formally correct takedown notice, consistent with
> longstanding policy.
I don't know where you got that, but I have never said such a thing.
Yes, what I am complaining about is merely communication.
The only notice was the following, which I find a bit short and dry.
"The Wikimedia Foundation received a request from Editions Gallimard
to takedown content from the French Wikisource. This request is based
on Editions Gallimard's claim that Wikisource content in the French
language targets the French public, and therefore, under French
conflict of laws principles, the copyright law of France applies to
A short phrase mentioning that might be a temporary deletion done
according to the Online Copyright Infringement Liability Limitation
Act might be enough for us to find what is going on.
If you cannot, or do not want explain yourself this process, you could
have ask someone else to do it.
I can't accept your assertion that every contributor has to be an
expert on US copyright law.
There are two other assertions which are false:
1. That I didn't inform the Wikisource community about Gallimard
demand. I have always informed the community about the information I
got, either from Gallimard, or from you.
2. That I try to avoid litigation. In fact I make a point not to hide
behind a pseudonym, and I would send them my address to Gallimard if
they ask for it. And they probably target me only because I am the
only contributor which they were able to find the real identity.
Now I have a few questions which you should be able to answer:
1. Did Gallimard send a lawsuit? If yes, the Wikisource community, and
probably many other contributors might be interested to know about it.
If not, how long do we have to wait before restoring the deleted
2. Is there on-going negotiations with Gallimard?
3. I am not sure I understand the process you mention in another mail
about reposting the content, compliant with applicable
notice-and-takedown law. Someone else might also be able to explain
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