[Foundation-l] Copyrighted maps and Derived works

[jamesmikedupont at googlemail.com]

On Thu, Apr 1, 2010 at 3:58 PM, Alison M. Wheeler
<wikimedia at alisonwheeler.com> wrote:
>
> This whole thread is striking me as akin to a child going "but why" every five seconds ad infinitem.

I am sorry that you feel that way, at least some people have
acknowledged some of my points.
I wish we would not have to have this conversation.
Hopefully we can make some progress on this issue.

> 1. Google (and other companies, such as Microsoft and Yahoo) make available satellite / aeroplane images on the net, free at the point of use, for all to view.

They are not for free, they are bound by very restricted terms of use.
That is the point that is being ignored. You cannot use them except
for agreeing to the TOS. There are very few other sources of map data
if you want just freely available ones.

> 2. Taking an image from a satellite or aeroplane image requires no copyrightable skill: Camera points down, takes images at fixed focus at regular time intervals. Images are published.

Copyright is not the issue, it is the terms of service.

> 4. Geolocation data can also be obtained by hand-held devices and from paper maps and many other sources.

And not all of them are permitted to be used in OSM.

> 5. "mass database extraction" requires *mass* - ie large proportion or 100% extraction of that data. WP doesn't do that. Any extracts are made individually for each case required. There is no automation in place. Even if one were to presume to consolidate every WP editor into a supposed single entity (which is precluded by the very nature of the projects anyway) it still would not be "mass".

I mean that the total number of extracted points are massive. Even if
they are done by lots of editors.

> 8. Stating the source of a fact - any fact - within WP isn't required for anything which is self-evident ("The sky appears blue during the day and is dark at night") or easily provable ("gravity on earth pulls things down"). Geographic *co-ordinates* per se therefore do not need a source.

Again, if you have access to the imagery of course. But how can you
access it without agreeing to the TOS?

>10. What OSM does is not - directly - of concern to WP. And vice-versa. Obviously however one should >hope that an equitable and valid way can be found to share information.

Yes, and I have not been asked not to import WP data, so I guess it is
just my problem.

> ps. The idea that satellite image is single POV is just silly!

It is a viewpoint! a very expensive point of view where light enters
the camera.  It can be wrong, skewed etc. Tracing from a single image
because there are no others is really not a neutral thing. It could be
off from the real location by kilometers.

Ok, I am going to just leave this for now,
sorry for taking up your time.

mike