[Foundation-l] Seeking clarification
Gerard Meijssen
gerard.meijssen at gmail.com
Tue Jan 22 17:28:27 UTC 2008
Hoi,
Wikieducator does not really need our help. Wikieducator is seriously good
at running projects, applying for grants, developing software. When you
compare Wikiversity with Wikieducator. What is now a community within the
Wikimedia Foundation made the argument that it would be good to have
Wikiversity. People are seriously trying to come up with a model that works
for them. This is a volunteer organisation. You compare it with a
professional organisation that is operating globally, an organisation
involved in organising conferences, an organisation that is seriously
investing money in the development of software that improves functionality
of MediaWiki when used in an educational setting.
Seriously, the two projects cannot be compared. I think the WMF helps
Wikiversity more then it helps Wikieducator. I would not be surprised if the
Commonwealth of Learning helps the Wikimedia Foundation more then the
Wikimedia Foundation is helping the Commonwealth of Learning.
Thanks,
GerardM
On Jan 22, 2008 6:01 PM, Chad <innocentkiller at gmail.com> wrote:
> [snip]
> On Jan 22, 2008 9:39 AM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > The notion that one project should not and can not compete
> > with another is false anyway. Both Wikipedia and Wikinews do news.
> [/snip]
>
> I don't think the relationship between Wikipedia and Wikinews on the topic
> of
> news coverage is exactly a fair example of "competition." Let's take a
> random
> subject: 2008 Riots in XYZ country. We'd expect both Wikinews and
> Wikipedia
> to cover this topic; however, from two different angles.
>
> Wikipedia should cover the overall encyclopedic topic (ie: the event, what
> lead
> up to it, causes, effects, background information, additional information
> etc).
> This being said, Wikinews should be covering it from a /news/ perspective.
> What's going on, how does it affect you, what are people saying about it,
> etc.
> This isn't competition, but rather two different coverages of the same
> topic from
> two different perspective.
>
> I think the issues being raised about the similarities between Wikiversity
> and
> WikiEducator (and I thank those who gave further information, it was very
> enlightening). The semantics of mentioning students in their target
> vision aside,
> I believe the projects are two very closely aligned, and can benefit
> greatly from
> quite a bit of inter-wiki cooperation. However, I still wonder why
> we'd be supporting
> WikiEducator publicly without seeming to give Wikiversity much help at all
> (it
> always, along with WikiSpecies, seemed like the red-headed-stepchild of
> the
> Foundation's projects from my perspective).
>
> Always,
> Chad
>
> On Jan 22, 2008 9:39 AM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hoi,
> > It is exactly because Wikiversity does target students that makes
> > Wikieducator different.
> >
> > What Wikieducator is about:
> > * planning of education projects linked with the development of free
> > content;
> > * development of free content on Wikieducator for e-learning;
> > * work on building open education resources (OERs) on how to create
> > OERs.
> > * networking on funding proposals developed as free content.*
> > *So my argument is good.
> >
> > All WMF projects aim to provide information. They all do it in a
> slightly
> > different way. The notion that one project should not and can not
> compete
> > with another is false anyway. Both Wikipedia and Wikinews do news. Both
> > Wikibooks and Wikiversity work on educational material Of relevance is
> the
> > difference in emphasis. This is what makes projects valid in their own
> > right.
> >
> > With the notion that projects cannot compete, you effectively convict
> > projects to stay in the same mold. When there are two groups with
> markedly
> > different insights, one of these has to give up their ideas and would
> not be
> > allowed to experiment with their notions of how things should be / can
> be
> > done. This is evil.
> >
> > In my opinion, there should be room for experiments and if we find that
> a
> > new kid on the block does good. More power to him/her. The beneficiary
> of
> > such experiments are the people that matter; the people we are providing
> > information to.
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> >
> >
> > On Jan 22, 2008 12:27 PM, Jason Safoutin <jason.safoutin at wikinewsie.org>
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Correct me if I am wrong. But does the front page of Wikiversity say
> > > that the project i for teachers students and researchers? If so, then
> > > your argument is false.
> > >
> > > No WMF project should, EVER, compete with one another. If we do, we
> may
> > > as well take the collaborative scheme, and throw it out of the window
> too.
> > >
> > > This "competition" goes against the WMF's mission.
> > >
> > > Jason Safoutin (DragonFire1024)
> > > >
> > > > Message: 6
> > > > Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 07:36:15 +0100
> > > > From: "Gerard Meijssen" <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Seeking clarification
> > > > To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
> > > > <foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org>
> > > > Message-ID:
> > > > <41a006820801212236v70332058qdf7cf18df083a835 at mail.gmail.com>
> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> > > >
> > > > Hoi,
> > > > In principle I would agree that the WMF could build all kinds of
> > > everything.
> > > > In practice the WMF has not been able to implement a project like
> Single
> > > > User Login in almost two year now I think it is. Practically it is
> > > either a
> > > > really dedicated and/or talented person that gets something
> organised or
> > > it
> > > > just does not happen.
> > > >
> > > > Also in the Open Source world it is a given that competing projects
> > > > invigorate each other because of their perceived competition. This
> may
> > > seem
> > > > rather Darwinistic but hey it seems to work for them so why not for
> us ?
> > > The
> > > > approach taken by Wikiversity and Wikieducator is markedly
> different.
> > > > Wikieducator is very much organised for and by people who are
> working in
> > > the
> > > > educational field while Wikiversity is not. These projects occupy
> > > different
> > > > niches, and therefore there is not so much competition after all.
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > GerardM
> > > >
> > > > On Jan 22, 2008 6:42 AM, Jason Safoutin <
> jason.safoutin at wikinewsie.org>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Why should Wikiversity or Wikispecies or any other WMF project have
> to
> > > >> compete with another WMF project, with basically the same goals?
> > > >>
> > > >> I am all for free collaborative content, but not if it means WMF
> > > >> projects have to compete against one another. Would that not defy
> the
> > > >> meaning of collaborative? Why not take what WMF has already and
> make it
> > > >> better. We know they have the capabilities to make new things like
> a
> > > >> collaborative video program...so why not?
> > > >>
> > > >> Point is the projects are all supposed to be part of a community of
> > > >> collaborators. We are supposed to be part of a foundation that
> supports
> > > >> that. Not driving the communities apart.
> > > >>
> > > >> Jason Safoutin
> > > >>
> > > >>> I understood Erik was asked to join their advisory board since he
> was
> > > >>> a Board of Trustees at WMF and both organizations were largely in
> a
> > > >>> same mind (free content for educational purpose). I think Erik
> said
> > > >>> something at the announcement of his appointment to Deputy ED but
> not
> > > >>> dig the archive right now (the network is a bit slow for me now).
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Btw I have no reason for making a panic -- sorry but it was my
> first
> > > >>> impression in this thread, so sorry if I just misunderstood your
> > > >>> reaction --- even if WikiEducator was a competitor of Wikiversity.
> Is
> > > >>> our world so small not as to allow two or more online educational
> > > >>> projects mainly for adult or in an advanced level? In real life we
> > > >>> have several high educational institutions. In several layers they
> > > >>> compete each others but still there are also collaborations in
> many
> > > >>> levels: both officially and informally they share lectures, books
> and
> > > >>> other educational resources and do research jointly etc. Can it be
> > > >>> this case or is there no such room for online projects at all?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Jan 22, 2008 10:21 AM, Nathan <nawrich at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> For a conflict of interest, interests must conflict. How do the
> > > >>>> interests of Wikimedia and WikiEducator conflict? That isn't
> clear to
> > > >>>> me. The goal is the same - the proliferation of easily accessible
> > > >>>> knowledge. Ideally, they could exchange content so that neither
> has
> > > >>>> anything the other lacks (depending on licenses, which I don't
> know
> > > >>>> the details of). FWIW, Erik is the deputy executive director.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Nathan
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Jan 21, 2008 8:12 PM, Jason Safoutin <
> > > jason.safoutin at wikinewsie.org>
> > > >>>>
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>>>> If I have to be the first to say it, I will. I know some of
> these
> > > >>>>>
> > > >> links
> > > >>
> > > >>>>> have been passed around here before, but for reference I will ad
> > > them,
> > > >>>>> and then some.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> It has become clear to me, at least a few things anyway. One
> bing
> > > that
> > > >>>>> there is clearly a conflict of interest on Erik Moeller's part.
> He
> > > is
> > > >>>>> currently on the advisory board for Wikieducator:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> * http://www.wikieducator.org/WikiEducator:Advisory_Board
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> "/WikiEducator's Interim International Advisory Board was
> assembled
> > > by
> > > >>>>> project founder Wayne Mackintosh to serve as a means of
> involving
> > > the
> > > >>>>> community until the project has grown large enough to elect a
> Board
> > > >>>>> through democratic means. Once 2,500 users have joined the wiki,
> > > >>>>> elections will be held to select a successor Board./", says the
> > > >>>>>
> > > >> website.
> > > >>
> > > >>>>> Not only that, but Kultra has some involvement with
> Wikieducator,
> > > and
> > > >>>>>
> > > >> if
> > > >>
> > > >>>>> I am not mistaken Wikieducator is slated to be on WMF servers:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> * _ Kaltura Collaborative Video Editing Extension Enabled:_
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>
> > >
> http://groups.google.com/group/wikieducator/browse_thread/thread/345c056f8304e25c
> > > >>
> > > >>>>> The way I see it, Wikieducator is the same thing that
> Wikiversity
> > > is.
> > > >>>>> Wikieducator is not to compete with Wikiversity, it is a means
> to
> > > IMO
> > > >>>>> eventually replace it. Don't believe me?
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Wikieducator:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> * *planning* of education projects linked with the
> development
> > > of
> > > >>>>> free content <http://freedomdefined.org/Definition>;
> > > >>>>> * *development* of free content on Wikieducator
> > > >>>>> <http://www.wikieducator.org/Content> for e-learning;
> > > >>>>> * work on building *open education resources* (OERs) on
> *how* to
> > > >>>>> create OERs.
> > > >>>>> * networking on *funding proposals
> > > >>>>> <http://www.wikieducator.org/Metawikieducator>* developed
> as
> > > >>>>>
> > > >> free
> > > >>
> > > >>>>> content.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Wikiversity: /*Wikiversity* is a community for the creation of
> > > >>>>>
> > > >> learning
> > > >>
> > > >>>>> activities and development of free learning materials. Students
> and
> > > >>>>> teachers
> > > >>>>> <http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Wikiversity:Wikiversity_teachers
> >
> > > are
> > > >>>>> invited to join the project as collaborators in teaching,
> learning,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >> and
> > > >>
> > > >>>>> research. Wikiversity strives to be an open and vibrant
> community
> > > >>>>>
> > > >> where
> > > >>
> > > >>>>> you can explore and learn about your personal interests.
> Wikiversity
> > > >>>>> hosts and develops free learning materials for all age groups.
> > > Please
> > > >>>>> participate and help build collaborative learning projects and
> > > >>>>> communities; at Wikiversity we learn by doing
> > > >>>>> <
> http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Portal:Education/Wikiversity_model>,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >> we
> > > >>
> > > >>>>> learn by editing./
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> So...what is different about the two? Nothing...other than a few
> > > more
> > > >>>>> bells and whistles.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> We all heard about the wonderful amazing and quite eye
> catiching,
> > > The
> > > >>>>> Encyclopedia Of Life - A collaborative encyclopedia to contain
> the
> > > >>>>> entire earth's species....I thought that's what Wikispecies is?
> Not
> > > to
> > > >>>>> mention that Erik is on their Institutional Council, which he
> also
> > > >>>>> represents the Wikimedia Foundation. Again not another
> competition,
> > > >>>>>
> > > >> but
> > > >>
> > > >>>>> if you have been to their website, you will see what I mean
> about
> > > >>>>> "replacement".
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> * http://www.eol.org/home.html
> > > >>>>> * http://blog.valuewiki.com/2007/05/09/encyclopedia-of-life/
> > > >>>>> * http://www.eol.org/partners.html#p3
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> So let cut to the chase. What is going on in WMF? Why is the
> > > Executive
> > > >>>>> Director involved with projects that are clearly designed to
> either
> > > >>>>> replace or out do WMF projects? Why is the WMF involved at all?
> And
> > > >>>>>
> > > >> why,
> > > >>
> > > >>>>> is the Board of Trustees, the group the communities elected, not
> > > >>>>>
> > > >> saying
> > > >>
> > > >>>>> anything? Whats going on and who is making these decisions?
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> In all respects, we have to right to know at least some things.
> As
> > > it
> > > >>>>> stands, Kaltura is directly endorsing the WMF on its front page:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> http://www.kaltura.com/devwiki/index.php/Main_Page
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> "/As recently announced
> > > >>>>> <
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>
> > >
> http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikipedia_Invites_Users_to_Take_Part_in_Open%2C_Collaborative_Video_Experiment
> > > >>
> > > >>> ,
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>> the Wikimedia Foundation and Kaltura have begun a process aimed
> at
> > > >>>>> bringing rich-media collaboration to Wikipedia and other wiki
> > > >>>>>
> > > >> websites.
> > > >>
> > > >>>>> The vision of this project is to enable the Wikipedia community
> to
> > > >>>>> further enhance and enrich Wikipedia articles with rich-media
> > > >>>>>
> > > >> content./"
> > > >>
> > > >>>>> They mention Wikipedia three times in just the first
> paragraph...
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> So who is in charge now????????????
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Jason Safoutin
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > > >>>>> foundation-l mailing list
> > > >>>>> foundation-l at lists.wikimedia.org
> > > >>>>> Unsubscribe:
> > > http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > > >>>>>
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> > > >>>>>
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