[Foundation-l] The problem with Flash

Sun Jan 20 20:07:03 UTC 2008

Hoi,
Nobody is saying that we should use it now. Everybody says that the
situation with Flash is not good. Nobody holds their breath until Adobe
releases its patents. But this whole situation is out of proportion, it is
not what open source is about. When people wanted file server support they
started the Samba <http://us3.samba.org/samba/> project.

When you ask yourself why the WMF asks for people interested to cooperate,
there are a cluster of reasons to be considered. A tool like this has
educational merit. Wikieduacator, an organisation we are associated with,
shows an interest. It does not cost us anything, but it has the potential of
providing improved tooling.

When you ask yourself why would YOU collaborate or not collaborate it makes
sense to ask if you consider it worth your time. You can discuss it on the
mailing list and if the arguments are good for you by all means they are
good enough to make up your mind.

All the technical reasons why you might want to lend a hand have NO bearing
on why the WMF informs you about this opportunity. They do it for their own
reasons. In essence, it has nothing to do with you. When the comparison was
made with religion, you have to appreciate that those who believe are
ferociously against those who do not hold the true faith. This behaviour is
what I observe and from my point of view it is not pretty. This has led to
diminished value of this, the foundation-l, because Mike decided that the
tone of voice was too much even unacceptable. As a consequence we all suffer
a loss because the distance between the foundation and the people of the
community has grown wider.

So, you are doing good in adding "vaporware" to what is already insulting as
it is. When you consider this freedom of speech, you may wonder why some
people are not willing to communicate with you or do not consider your
opinions.
Thanks,
     GerardM

On Jan 20, 2008 7:05 PM, Chad <innocentkiller at gmail.com> wrote:

> No, I think he's pointing out the issues with this that state why we
> shouldn't use it now;
> this has agreement, I believe. Not to mention, until Adobe releases
> those patents or
> makes Flash an open standard, there will never be a 100% (that's
> gratis AND libre)
> implementation of it, ever, as Ben said.
>
> However, the question still remains: why is it the WMF's job to
> provide a PR boost
> for a (seemingly) startup? Wouldn't we get further by helping Gnash
> directly?
>
> Somebody knows somebody, that much appears clear to me now.
>
> Chad
>
> On Jan 20, 2008 12:47 PM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hoi,
> > Nice but what is your point and how does it relate to what is the issue?
> The
> > issue is that a framework is being developed. It needs open source
> > components to make it work and gnash has been mentioned as one component
> in
> > all this that needs work. What you describe is exactly the reason why
> work
> > needs to be done to make this type of content work well on Linux
> >
> > So you describe that things do not work well. You provide the exact
> > arguments why something needs to be done ... So you are in favour of the
> > proposed collabaration... GREAT
> > Thanks,
> >      GerardM
> >
> >
> > On Jan 20, 2008 6:32 PM, Ben McIlwain <cydeweys at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > > Hash: SHA1
> > >
> > > Brion Vibber wrote:
> > >
> > > > In many cases that'll cover the same ground as non-free formats; the
> > > > main exceptions are for patent-encumbered standards (eg, the MPEG
> family
> > > > - MP3, AAC, H.264, etc) and widely-deployed proprietary formats that
> > > > have been reverse-engineered by FOSS developers (eg, Flash).
> > >
> > > On the subject of Flash, I think it might help to relate my
> experiences
> > > so that everyone on this list knows how deficient it is on free
> software
> > > platforms.  (This isn't directed to you Brion, as that'd just be
> > > preaching to the choir :-P )
> > >
> > > I run GNU/Linux on my laptop.  Pretty much everything works and I'm
> able
> > > to do everything I do in Windows, except Flash.  First of all, the
> free
> > > software Flash alternatives simply aren't there yet.  They aren't good
> > > enough for everyday use.  And even if they were, they still wouldn't
> be
> > > free, because they're infringing on various patents that Adobe no
> doubt
> > > holds.  And the free software stuff isn't good enough to create Flash
> > > either, so you still need to pay the tax in the form of the creator
> > > program (which as far as I know doesn't run on GNU/Linux).  You can
> see
> > > why this is unacceptable.
> > >
> > > Even the official Adobe Flash player plugin for Mozilla Firefox on
> > > GNU/Linux is deficient.  It's treated like a third-rate product by
> > > Adobe, sometimes seeing major version updates many months after the
> > > Windows plugin is released.  In the mean time, new Flash content that
> > > depends on the new features simply won't work.  And the plugin itself
> is
> > > just bad.  It frequently crashes Firefox, some of its functionality
> > > plain old doesn't work, etc.  And nevermind that it's not free in any
> > > sense of the word except gratis; it's all binary, the source isn't
> > > available, so it's all entirely anti-libre.
> > >
> > > - From where I stand, Flash isn't even an option to be considered in
> > > fulfilling the Foundation's mission statement of "developing
> educational
> > > content under a free license or in the public domain".  It won't even
> > > run on a completely free system, and it will only run poorly on a
> > > partially free system (giving in and installing their binary-only
> > > plugin).  It is, simply, not what we are looking for.
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> > >
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