[Foundation-l] English Wikipedia ethnocentric policy affects other communities

[Gerard Meijssen]

Neil Harris schreef:
> Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>   
>> Neil Harris schreef:
>>   
>>     
>>> Gerard Meijssen wrote:
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> Neil Harris schreef:
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> Birgitte SB wrote:
>>>>>   
>>>>>     
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>>>> en.WP is not the primary Wikipedia for many wikimedia
>>>>>> editors.  These usernames *are* in the primary
>>>>>> character set of the users home wiki.  I think it is
>>>>>> perfectly reasonable to expect to not be blocked just
>>>>>> because Wikimedia adopts SUL.  Bascially what this
>>>>>> boils down to is someone who today edits as an IP
>>>>>> without harrassment will be blocked after SUL as soon
>>>>>> as an en.WP admin spots them on RC.  This will happen
>>>>>> without the editor doing anything differently on their
>>>>>> end.  
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is strong support for SUL throughout all
>>>>>> communtities, but I cannot support going live with it
>>>>>> if large chunks of the wikimedia community will be
>>>>>> locally blocked without warning on any particular
>>>>>> wiki.  If en.WP does not wish to adjust thier policies
>>>>>> to this mew development perhaps en.WP can be left out
>>>>>> of SUL.  Is it possible for en.WP to keep their own
>>>>>> user database while all other wikis use a shared
>>>>>> database?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Birgitte SB
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   
>>>>>>     
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>         
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>             
>>>>> Absolutely.
>>>>>
>>>>> Different-script blocking on en: must therefore stop as soon as SUL is 
>>>>> implemented.
>>>>>
>>>>> But, since human-readable usernames are essential to managing the wiki 
>>>>> system, and for many people names not in their native script are not 
>>>>> human-readable, there must necessarily be some sort of solution to the 
>>>>> name-incomprehensibility problem before SUL goes live.
>>>>>
>>>>> The truename + nickname idea looks to me like the favourite at the 
>>>>> moment. I definitely support it, with the provisos that:
>>>>>
>>>>> * truenames _and_ nicknames need to be made globally unique within the 
>>>>> single SUL namespace, otherwise they will present new opportunities for 
>>>>> misdirection (eg. nick of one user is the same as the truename of 
>>>>> another and vice versa, or that on another different-script wiki...)
>>>>> * that each truename or nickname have characters only from a single 
>>>>> script system (although they will of course in general have different 
>>>>> script systems from one another, because that's the whole point)
>>>>> * that the anti-spoofing code be used to filter both (which may need 
>>>>> some overdue improvements in the anti-spoofing algorithm to be put in 
>>>>> place, which I've got on the back burner already anyway)
>>>>>
>>>>> I would also suggest, at the risk of further controversy, that having an 
>>>>> appropriate nick be made compulsory if you intend to use your account to 
>>>>> edit in a wiki with a default script different from that of your username.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps we could put in place some sort of human-driven wiki-based 
>>>>> please-translate-my-name-into-your-script service for this, or simply 
>>>>> generate a (also globally unique) machine-generated ID until users 
>>>>> create an appropriate nick, with regular nag messages to remind them to 
>>>>> do so?
>>>>>
>>>>> -- Neil
>>>>>     
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> Hoi,
>>>> You cannot have the cake and eat it too. All languages and scripts that 
>>>> we have are human readable. The notion that they are not is brain dead. 
>>>> The idea that nicks have to be unique too will be next to impossible to 
>>>> implement. Again, when a user is created in a Latin script, and he does 
>>>> "evil" things, you will have to check the talk page / history to find in 
>>>> what way you want to impose sanctions. This is no different from people 
>>>> with a user in another script.
>>>>
>>>> Again, I think that the suggestion of forcing to have people change 
>>>> their name is the wrong way to go. I am dead against it. It is 
>>>> discrimination pure and simple.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>     GerardM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> "Human readable" != "readable by all humans". For example, most en: 
>>> editors simply cannot read most, or in some cases any, non-Latin 
>>> scripts. That is to say, things like "मुखपृष्ठ" and "सुस्वागतम्", or 
>>> "𐌷𐌰𐌿𐌱𐌹𐌳" and "𐌰𐍃𐌴𐌹𐌳𐍉" and "கிபீடியாவில", are as 
>>> incomprehensible to them, and as difficult to memorize or tell apart, as 
>>> "£$^&(*%^$&" and "$($"£%^&$&". And that to a reader of any of the 
>>> scripts in the example above, the reverse may well also apply.
>>>
>>> Faced with a vandal called "सुवाग", most en: users won't be able to 
>>> distinguish them from "ागतम्". without looking very, very carefully at 
>>> the respective rendered character strings: and often, not even then. Nor 
>>> will they be able to think of those users by their names: if anything, 
>>> they will think of their names as unintelligible squiggles, and hence 
>>> their users as anonymous -- for if you can't understand or recognize a 
>>> name other than as a squiggle, what use is it to you?
>>>
>>> This will be very damaging to the fundamental social fabric of 
>>> Wikipedia, and lead to an us-and-them mentality.
>>>
>>> On the other hand, if our fictional user 武 has his name rendered beside 
>>> a Latin script nick on en:, other users will instantly be able to put a 
>>> name to him: specifically, his real name, Takeshi, the same one as in 
>>> the kanji version of his true username, which will always be present 
>>> beside it on en: (Indeed, if they talk with or about him for long 
>>> enough, they will come to recognise that kanji character, too.) Of 
>>> course, on ar: he would have a different nick: which would also be 
>>> either another transliteration of "Takeshi", or some close variant.
>>>
>>> And the same would apply symmetrically in all of the wikis: if I want to 
>>> edit in ar: I should either ask someone nicely to translate my name as 
>>> an Arab nickname, or put up with whatever Arabic-readable nick the 
>>> system automatically generated for me in lieu of a proper nickname.
>>>
>>> So: to the technical requirements in my previous E-mails, I'd like to 
>>> add a couple of other, social, suggestions:
>>>
>>> * it should be a guideline that users should always attempt to make 
>>> their nicks the same as their username, or a close variant if that is 
>>> not directly possible;
>>>
>>> * and it should be frowned upon _not_ to create a nick if one is editing 
>>> for any significant time on a foreign-script Wikipedia (that is, 
>>> sticking with a machine-generated nick like x105234 should be regarded 
>>> as antisocial). Ideally, the system would generate periodic nag messages 
>>> to remind users to do so.
>>>
>>> I hope you can see that in this scheme:
>>>
>>> * no-one is asking _anyone_ to change their name
>>> * all script systems are treated equally, without any privileged 
>>> character set or language
>>> * everyone is actually more able to see, read and identify with other 
>>> people's real names than if they were presented on their own
>>>
>>> -- Neil
>>>     
>>>       
>> Neil,
>> I have some 170*2 users on the Wiktionary projects all called GerardM 
>> and RobotGMwikt. With SUL people will be able with one click to see that 
>> this is indeed the same person on all of these projects. RobotGMwikt has 
>> probably the most edits on most Wiktionaries. The way things are 
>> configured are such that I can only have one user. I can promise you 
>> that I will not change any of these users. If I am forced to do this, I 
>> will stop running the bot that I have been running for more than a year 
>> without any complaints as to the naming of these users.
>>
>> I will again say how much I resent this policy of the English language 
>> Wikipedia, it is discrimination pure and simple. With SUL it will be 
>> easy to check WHO it is that is doing the editing. The most charitable 
>> way I can look on this huha is that when SUL is finally there, this 
>> discussion will prove to be a storm in a tea cup.
>> Thanks,
>>      GerardM
>>
>>   
>>     
> Which part of "no-one is asking _anyone_ to change their name" did you 
> miss in the above?
>
> Under any of the most recent proposals aired here, you won't have to do 
> a thing. Some kind of default disambiguation tag will simply be 
> displayed next to your username in all the relevant contexts: probably a 
> number in Arabic numerals.
>
> And voila! All your accounts, robot and human respectively, are 
> disambiguated for those who can't read the Latin alphabet, in the same 
> way as the hypothetical User:武 (102343), would be, before he decided 
> (for purely social, human reasons) to change his nick, to be displayed 
> as User:武 (Takeshi) on Latin-script wikis, without changing his true 
> username at all: it was, is, and always will be just "武", regardless of 
> how many wikis he uses it on.
>
> Thus, the only requirement for all users would be the need to recognize 
> strings made from the symbols "0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9", which is about as 
> culture neutral as it is possible to get, as people from most cultures 
> already either use, or can recognize the digits of the Arabic number system.
>
> And users who don't want to do anything won't have to do anything at all.
>
> If this does not satisfy you, perhaps you can come up with a better 
> solution which will let Latin-only readers distinguish at a glance 
> between 漢, 源, and 装, (only one of whom is a vandal) and make them 
> sufficiently memorable that they can remember them distinctly some time 
> later?
>
> -- Neil
Hoi,
The notion that the numbers used in the Latin script are universal is 
also a fallacy.
Thanks,
    GerardM