[Foundation-l] [Wikichix-l] Moderating an open list

[Anthere]

I knew this subject will end up a huge troll, I knew it....


Puppy wrote:
> I would have preferred that not be done precipitously, without allowing 
> time for discussion. This is what, a two-day-old list, and a few men 
> have bitched about reverse discrimination, so oh too bad, let's toss the 
> women off the island??? "Peace of the community???' Bullshit. Several 
> men have supported the idea of a closed list. At least one woman (me) 
> has suggested opening the list. What about the peace of mind of women 
> contributors, to have a safe place to discuss issues? Oh, that's a 
> "women's topic" so its irrelevant? 
`
For the record, I do not appreciate the implication of your email saying 
that because the choice is made not to host the list on Wikimedia 
servers for the peace of our community, that necessarily implies that 
the women concerns are irrelevant. Since I originally agreed for the 
opening of that list, and later asked Angela to move it somewhere else, 
I tend to take your comment very personnally. I understand you are 
upset, but I still do not appreciate that.

So, we have two options. Either a closed list. Or a heavily moderated list.

I am not very happy with a closed list, restricted to women. I am not 
very supportive of positive discrimination. Men and women are different, 
with different concerns, different sensibilities, different interest, 
different approaches to things. I have never been of the opinion we 
should try to be "equal" in everything. I do not think we can be. We are 
complementing each other. Two parts of a complete piece. We overlap. But 
we will never be equal. Trying to push things toward an artificial 
equality will not change that. We need input of both parts and imho, to 
realise both parts are necessary in the debate. In this, I think the 
list should not be restricted to women.

When the proposal was made to open and heavily moderate the list, Angela 
comment was quite straight. Very heavy moderation is a good idea. Now, 
who does it ? Being myself the (very light) moderator of about half a 
dozen lists, I echo her question. Who will take in charge the heavy 
moderation ? If you really want women to be safe, you need to approve 
requests for joining, which means in many cases, you need to know the 
people. First trap. Either you accept anonymous membership by default 
and hope all will go well, or you accept only those you know. Which 
again is discrimination.
If you want the women to feel real secure, you need to moderate posts 
*before* they are posted. Second trap. Are you willing to check all 
emails before they are posted ?
If you are the moderator, how do you judge which comments should be 
removed and which one kept ? if I wanted to feel *safe*, I would 
probably delete several emails on this list from the past days, and at 
least a dozen from wikien on the discussion 2 weeks ago. Do you feel 
ready to do so for a list on wikimedia servers ? Because as soon as you 
get the job, you'll have people complaining that you removed this 
message and not that one. And then, in the name of democratie and 
equality, you'll find yourself voting on whether to remove a message. or 
not.

I have a memory of such an event on the french wiki pump, maybe a year 
ago. A clueless visitor had left a honest question. And one of our admin 
left a very sexist comment/answer there; I was deeply shocked. Very 
deeply, in particular because the visitor... was just a visitor.
I removed the comment. It was immediately restored and I was stormed for 
several days for having removed the comment. Which was considered 
censorship. Are you ready to face screams and accusations of censorship 
for having removed a sexist comment on a wiki ? Are you ready to face 
screams and accusation of censorship for removing a message containing a 
sexist comment on the list ?

Dunno about you, but me, no more. I choose my fights. I prefer working 
as best as possible in the Foundation to show that women can perfectly 
do that. That as long as our specific needs are acknowledged and taken 
into account (which goes from not bugging us too much when we have our 
periods, to paying nanny costs of a volunteer mom), we can do just as 
best, if not better.
Wikipedia is plagued by sexism, but at least, it has shown it is an 
environment where we have a chance to grow and show our own strengths.

If you really want that list on wikimedia servers, here is what I 
recommand you do
1) make it an open list for men and women
2) get the agreement from Eloquence and Jimbo
3) take care of the moderation yourself, do not expect Angela to do it :-)

If you do that yourself, you are a winner.

anthere





No. I don't think so. Its a pity this
> was not discussed in any greater detail, rather than being (like so many 
> of the concerns which *led* to this list) being summarily dismissed. I 
> also find it telling that the /women's/ concerns were ridiculed and 
> dismissed as invalid, yet the /men's/ concerns led to almost immediate 
> action. How sadly typical.
> 
> Angela wrote:
> 
>>I'm not willing to fight about so I'll move the list to Wikia, but
>>it's quite upsetting that despite the clear need for this list,
>>Wikimedia are not willing to support it. Perhaps the old Wikimedia
>>WikiChix list can be made into an open but moderated one.
>>
>>Angela.
>>
>>On 12/5/06, florencedevouard <anthere at anthere.org> wrote:
>>
>>>Hello,
>>>
>>>It seems best for the peace of the community that the Wikichix-l list is
>>>not hosted on Wikimedia servers.
>>>Could you move it to another place please Angela ? A Yahoo Group maybe ?
>>>
>>>Please receive my apologies.
>>>
>>>Ant
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>Wikichix-l mailing list
>>Wikichix-l at wikia.com
>>http://lists.wikia.com/mailman/listinfo/wikichix-l
>>