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Dear Lodewijk,<br>
<br>
I find it a bit difficult to assume good faith when someone
approaches me with a knife. I find it more natural to defend, and
that's what we have to do now.<br>
<br>
I truly regret that Commons did not develop a more civil approach
than submitting deletion requests on every possible occasion. Even
if we assume that this is the reasonable course of action, it hardly
makes sense for WLM, because only uploaders receive notifications
about possible file deletion. The organizers have no idea about it,
although they should be contacted in the first turn. Most of the
uploaders are new users who do not speak English. What do you expect
to hear from them?<br>
<br>
All photos related to WLM Russia contain a template saying:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Please read the <a
href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Monuments_database_in_Russia"
title="Commons:Monuments database in Russia">guidelines</a>
before making any changes that can affect the monuments database!</blockquote>
If you actually read the guidelines, you will see the following:<br>
<blockquote type="cite">If you see a potential candidate for
deletion, <b>inform us in the first place</b>. We will organize
the file transfer and you will be able to delete the photo
afterwards. Should you do it differently and nominate a WLM/WLE
photo for deletion without informing us, this will be highly
detrimental and disrespectful to our work. We don't like vandals.</blockquote>
All these deletion requests are indeed highly disrespectful to our
work. But they happen, and we have no other choice but to fight
against that. And whet our knives, because we will likely need them.<br>
<br>
Sincerely,<br>
Alexander<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 17.09.2016 12:17, Lodewijk wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CACf6BetOJBJtjrZOy+7yycismKYSK0Ads+84=EwPoAtK_aT6pg@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hey Alexander,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Assuming good faith is always good - even if you have to
work harder for it. It makes the interactions more pleasant
and the work more fun. So I will always recommend to keep
doing it - even if it goes against your natural response. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The case where the names don't seem to match seems like a
valid case to me to ask questions, and this process is
(unfortunately) the process being used for that at Wikimedia
Commons. It is uncomfortable, but it is what we have to deal
with. Because there are so many pictures, there is a bunch to
be expected. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'm not going to pretend that the Wikimedia Commons
community is always easy or fun to work with - but their
intentions are usually good. They are very tough on copyright,
and very suspicious. While these are some disadvantages, it
does allow us to use a lot of shared infrastructure, and makes
competitions like this one possible on an international scale.
Please do realise that the number of uploads typically raises
with 30-100% during Wiki Loves Monuments, and this puts some
stress/strain on the reviewers too. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Lodewijk</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">2016-09-17 8:58 GMT+02:00 Alexander
Tsirlin <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:altsirlin@gmail.com" target="_blank">altsirlin@gmail.com</a>></span>:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><span class="">
<blockquote type="cite">Rather than complaining to the
process could you please for once think that this is
your project too and everyone in this together?</blockquote>
</span> It is not my project. Like many other people, I am
forced to use it as a common image repository, even though
I emphatically do not want to. As you probably know,
before migrating to WMF servers Wikivoyage had its own
image repository, and we wanted to keep it, because it was
much better organized than Commons, and we did not want
other people to impose their rules and practices of
"nominating everything for deletion" on images that we
have carefully collected ourselves.<br>
<br>
Unfortunately, our request was ignored by the WMF, so yes,
we are also in this strange thing that was supposed to be
a common project, but is in fact run by a handful of
people who believe that unjustified and well-hidden
deletion requests are the best way to solve all problems.
But it stinks, and we try to be as far from it as
possible.<br>
<br>
Your experience of license review for WLM Bangladesh might
be interesting if we would ever have time to do this. At
the moment, I spend most of my free time on finding and
fighting these well-hidden deletion requests. Thank you,
my dear Commons community, for creating such a wonderful
working environment.<br>
<br>
Sincerely,<br>
Alexander
<div>
<div class="h5"><br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 17.09.2016 11:32, Nahid Sultan wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div
style="font-size:12pt;color:#000000;background-color:#ffffff;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<p> Though it seems a bit odd but on a commons
perspective it is also a normal
procedure. Commons has a huge issue with people
finding images online and then uploading them as
their own work, so regular contributors on
commons can sometimes be overzealous in making
sure that people actually have the right to
release what they are releasing. That is where
the OTRS system comes in. Rather than
complaining to the process could you please for
once think that this is your project too and
everyone in this together?</p>
<p> <br>
</p>
<p> We, from WLM Bangladesh team have created a
work-board/list for such users who have problem
with metadata, previously published same image
on other media to make sure that they are
actually own the copyright. we even created a
hand book for reviewers explaining what to look
during the review (<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:NahidSultan/WLM"
target="_blank">https://commons.wikimedia.<wbr>org/wiki/User:NahidSultan/WLM</a>)<wbr>. So,
every reviewer check for those mistakes when
reviewing an image then if they found such
problematic user they immediately contact them
via email or talk page and list them on <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:NahidSultan/WLM/possible_copyright_problem"
target="_blank">https://commons.wikimedia.<wbr>org/wiki/User:NahidSultan/WLM/<wbr>possible_copyright_problem</a>.
It works for us.</p>
<br>
<p>Best,</p>
<div>
<div
style="font-size:12pt;color:#000000;background-color:#ffffff;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<p> Nahid Sultan</p>
<p> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:NahidSultan" style="font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;line-height:18px;white-space:pre-wrap" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">User:NahidSultan</span></a><span style="color:rgb(20,24,35);line-height:18px;white-space:pre-wrap;font-size:9pt;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
on all </span><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation" style="font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;line-height:18px;white-space:pre-wrap" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:9pt;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Wikimedia
Foundation</span></a><span style="color:rgb(20,24,35);line-height:18px;white-space:pre-wrap;font-size:9pt;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">'s public wikis</span><br>
</p>
<p> <span style="color:rgb(20,24,35);line-height:18px;white-space:pre-wrap;font-size:9pt;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:9pt">Secretary,
</span><span style="font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:9pt"><span style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Bangladesh" target="_blank">Wikimedia Bangladesh</a></span></span></span></p>
<p> <span style="color:rgb(20,24,35);line-height:18px;white-space:pre-wrap;font-size:9pt;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-family:helvetica,arial,sans-serif;font-size:9pt">Twitter:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://twitter.com/nahidunlimited" target="_blank">@nahidunlimited</a></span></span></p>
<p> <span style="color:rgb(20,24,35);line-height:18px;white-space:pre-wrap;font-size:9pt;font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://blog.nahidsultan.xyz/" target="_blank">http://blog.nahidsultan.xyz/</a></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<div>
<hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt"
face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b>
WikiLovesMonuments <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:wikilovesmonuments-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org"
target="_blank"><wikilovesmonuments-bounces@<wbr>lists.wikimedia.org></a>
on behalf of Alexander Tsirlin <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:altsirlin@gmail.com"
target="_blank"><altsirlin@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, September 17, 2016
11:09 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Wiki Loves Monuments Photograph
Competition<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Wiki Loves Monuments]
WLM photos are deleted on Commons</font>
<div> </div>
</div>
</div>
<font size="2"><span style="font-size:10pt">
<div>Now it is not only about Freedom of
Panorama and non-free images.<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_uploaded_by_VekaSpb"
target="_blank">https://commons.wikimedia.org/<wbr>wiki/Commons:Deletion_<wbr>requests/Files_uploaded_by_<wbr>VekaSpb</a><br>
Here, one Commons user nominates a bunch
of excellent photos for <br>
deletion after he sees that the user name
does not match the name in <br>
EXIF, even though the connection between
the two is pretty obvious. This <br>
deletion request has been closed
yesterday, but it still costed me a lot <br>
of time and a long e-mail exchange with
the uploader, where I tried to <br>
convince her that everything is fine, and
this deletion request was only <br>
a mistake. Yes, just a small mistake,
really...<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/Files_uploaded_by_PhotoJinn"
target="_blank">https://commons.wikimedia.org/<wbr>wiki/Commons:Deletion_<wbr>requests/Files_uploaded_by_<wbr>PhotoJinn</a><br>
Here, the same user nominates for deletion
some photos of a 13th century <br>
cathedral claiming that there is no
freedom of panorama. What???!<br>
<br>
------------------------------<wbr>---------<br>
<br>
That's a very systematic course of action
against us taking place on <br>
Commons. It would be silly to assume good
faith here.<br>
<br>
Best,<br>
Alexander<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
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