[WikiEN-l] [Foundation-l] Trouble in Ireland

[Michael Everson]

On 28 Nov 2008, at 00:27, Ray Saintonge wrote:

> Michael Everson wrote:
>> On 27 Nov 2008, at 12:05, David Gerard wrote:
>>
>>> 2008/11/27 Michael Everson <everson at evertype.com>:
>>>
>>>> We haven't proposed that. We proposed "Ireland (state)".
>>>>
>>> That has a slight smell of neologism - is the term used anywhere  
>>> outside Wikipedia?
>>>
>> It is no different from "Georgia (country)"
>>
> That's because the nationals of a few small countries perceive a  
> "state" to be a political subdivision.

I don't understand. "Georgia (country)" and "Georgia (state)" would  
both = Sakartvelo and both contrast with "Georgia (U.S. State)". And  
the U.S. States are sovereign in a sense (California is more sovereign  
than County Mayo in Ireland is), though they also are part of a  
federal structure which is the top-level subdivision in terms of UN  
recognition.

>>> At least "Republic of Ireland" is something it's called in an  
>>> official document on the state's formation.
>>
>>
>> Incorrect. The Constitution of Ireland (1937) specifies that  
>> "Ireland" is the name of the state. The Republic of Ireland Act  
>> (1948) specifies that "Republic of Ireland" is a "description" of  
>> the state.
>>
> Does the 1937 Constitution actually use the word "state"?

Yes. Clause 2 is "the State" and section 4 states "The name of the  
State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland."

> Would [[Ireland (Republic)]] be sufficient to emphasize that the  
> term "republic" is merely descriptive.

I don't believe it would be preferable. to changee [[Republic of  
Ireland]] to [[Ireland (republic)]] or to [[Ireland (Republic)]] -- I  
think you'd get push-back on that. I could ask, but just at the moment  
that might be poking the hornet's nest.

>> Once again, the best compromise proposal:
>>
>> Ireland --> disambiguation page
>> Ireland (island) --> about the island, comparable to the "Great  
>> Britain" article
>> Ireland (state) --> about the state.
>>
>
> While I have no difficulty with [[Ireland (state)]]. I think that  
> reducing [[Ireland]] to a disambiguation page diminishes the term.

"Diminish"? I don't see how. The word "Ireland" is well and truly  
ambiguous. It *could* point to the modern state, but that pisses a lot  
of Northern Ireland editors off. Hence the compromise.

> There is nothing in what your proposal that would adequately deal  
> with pre-1922 Ireland.

You mean, pre-1922 Ireland as a political unit? [[Irish_Free_State]]  
deals with Ireland 1922-1937; The proposed [[Ireland (state)]] deals  
with the modern country. We've got [[Irish_states_since_1171]]. I  
don't see the problem. It's a complex situation. With the article name  
changes as proposed I think we'd have a good shot at sorting out the  
articles though.

Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com