[WikiEN-l] Discussion forum - The WikBack

[simonpedia]

Dear Anthony,
 
I had to say something about this one as it’s been a discussion across so
many wikmedia lists over the past years. Sorry about having to repeat all
the stuff below but you know how it is – email is lousy for keeping threads
together, so repetition is constant while our monthly usage is wasted. 
 
Even though I’m across another five lists in the wikimedia.org domain, it
still needs me to register = prove that I won’t contaminate this one; we
can’t expect anything otherwise with horizontally challenged elists. And you
will know the time it takes to delete the spam produced from all of them,
with 95% of all emails being spam these days.
 
Let me use the ammunition you have provided for us and quote from Ben at
Citizendium. HYPERLINK
"http://mail.citizendium.org/pipermail/sharedknowing/2007-December/000001.ht
ml"http://mail.citizendium.org/pipermail/sharedknowing/2007-December/000001.
html
“Wikis are bad for resolving disagreements or determining consensus. The
wiki renders no verdict."
 
In the same manner elists are atrocious for sharing a discussion across
projects (and their domains) since once they’re underway, busy people, quite
reasonably, are stuck in their groove, with their mates, who help filter the
good from crap. 
 
Every media technology has its strengths and weaknesses. The effect of the
wiki/list server combination has been to create different types of libraries
of various quality articles, coupled with narrow communication channels in
which the technically knowledgeable are safe from curious interlopers. So
when such ideas (E.g) as broadening a reference desk are suggested it
becomes heresy for it to be considered at a meta or extra-project level.
HYPERLINK
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28proposals%29#WP:Refe
rence_Desk_should_be_split_off_into_its_own_separate_project"http://en.wikip
edia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28proposals%29#WP:Reference_Desk_shoul
d_be_split_off_into_its_own_separate_project ; that is, it cannot be
considered by the broader community at all due to the nature of the silos.
And that’s before you even consider adapting an English library for another
language. HYPERLINK
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Multilingual_coordination"http://en.
wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Multilingual_coordination
 
So let me just note an emailed proposal from Eric about a year ago. 
HYPERLINK
"http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-January/026707.html"
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/foundation-l/2007-January/026707.html
He also stuck the content over here. HYPERLINK
"http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Outreach"http://meta.wikimedia.org
/wiki/Wikimedia_Outreach
He finishes off the prop with “There are literally thousands of groups we
want to work with in our global strategy to spread free knowledge. This
cannot be handled by a small committee or the staff of a chapter; it needs
the support of a global community of volunteers”. Sounds fair, no?  
 
Well I don’t know if that is gonna work either. But it’s a good attempt to
get a few groovologists to jump. Ultimately we are trying to support global
groups do what they do better, faster, easier, and once. So forums would be
one step. But I would hope we might start getting serious this year about
actually talking in REAL TIME rather than just writing asynchronously all
the time. 
 
OK That’s enough for this year. Back to groundhog day. Again and again and
again.
 
PS. You should be able to set up a flag on a forum and get notice of a new
thread, no problem. But theoretically, you’ll never get a forum to pick up
all the references in an email header and put it in the right place. Cause
some moderator might decide the conversation is not in the right spot in the
first place. And as they can understand a broader environment, they’re
probably right. Luv and kisses.
 
 
 
On Jan 1, 2008 1:52 PM, Earle Martin <HYPERLINK
"http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l"wikipedia at
downlode.org> wrote:
> On 28/12/2007, Risker <HYPERLINK
"http://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikien-l"risker.wp at
gmail.com> wrote:
> > > A good idea, UC; forums are usually better at threaded  conversation
and
> > it is much easier to correct things when folks go off-topic.
> 
> A bad idea. Forums are manifestly inferior to email, which can be read
> from anywhere using a number of methods, instead of having to go to a
> site and use some hateful forum software. Not that I feel the need to
> post here often, but it offers more value than any forum can. I
> certainly won't be joining.
> 
I think the biggest advantage of email lists is that I can access all
of them in one place.  I'm subscribed to about a dozen different
mailing lists which I can access all at once under the "mailing lists"
label in gmail.  So I get threads from Larry Sanger's SharedKnowing
mailing list (HYPERLINK
"http://mail.citizendium.org/mailman/listinfo/sharedknowing"http://mail.citi
zendium.org/mailman/listinfo/sharedknowing)
mixed with threads from the Tor mailing list or-talk
(HYPERLINK
"http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/"http://archives.seul.org/or/talk/) mixed
with threads from the Tampa
linux user group (HYPERLINK
"http://slug.archives.nks.net/List/"http://slug.archives.nks.net/List/)
mixed with
threads from the OpenStreetMap mailing list, etc.  I can search all of
these from one location, no one can delete messages on them out from
under me, I find it very convenient.  If I want to read one of the
mailing lists individually I can do that too, but I pretty much never
do this.  I guess some people wouldn't like this, but for me it's
almost essential.
 
When Citizendium switched their mailing list to forums and made their
mailing list announce-only, my participation fell off dramatically.
I've recently tried setting up their forums to send me an email
whenever a new thread on the forums is started, but it isn't working
very well.  Gmail doesn't thread it properly, I have to mark each
thread I want to follow separately, I lose the messages between the
first and whenever I marked the thread.  It doesn't work.
 
In theory there should be a way to get the best of both worlds,
though.  Just let me set a flag on the forum to send me an email every
time a message is added, properly titled and referenced for any email
program which handles threading, and let me reply to the messages by
email (and pick up the references or whatever in the email header to
direct the message to the right spot in the forums).

 


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